SCCA F/A -What do You want?

[Randy Cook]

I believe every SCCA class should have a stated philosophy or "Mission Statement". We read FasTrack comments that refer to a "class philosophy" (e.g. turbos in FF is against the class philosophy) but where is the philosophy stated?
For instance, I enjoy the fact that SCCA F/A cars are similar to Pro Atlantic cars. Being able to compare my lap times against Pro drivers motivates me to a goal. I want to continue this similarity and resist rules changes that lead to the cars being very different from Pro cars.

I'm going to try to develop an SCCA F/A "Mission Statement" proposal so that a guy can actually know what the "class philosophy" is and what can be expected from the SCCA regarding rules changes.
There have been proposals before the comp board to approve a variety of engines, change wheel width specification, etc. and all manner of other general changes. With a written class philosophy, agreed to by the competitors, we could have a reasonable expectation of what to expect in future rules from our representatives rather than rely on the whims of a comp board whose plans for our class may change with opinions of the people serving on it.

What are the thoughts of you current F/A competitors about a class philosophy? Please express your expectations/wishes for the future of F/A.

Thanks,
Randy Cook

[Stan Clayton]

Randy, why don't you take a stab at a draft?

Or even just some bullets to hit the high spots.

[S Jennings]

So......This lack of response : Is it lack of interest or is everybody happy with the current rules ???????
What happens in about 9 months when you need a TRD supplied part for your 4ag engine and the part is no longer available?
Throwing away these cars if we can't get an engine part should not be an option.
Steve

[RobLav]

Steve,

Good Comment. I'm thinking of buying a DB4, so I'm obviously interested in engine development. I noticed that the Toyota 1ZZ and 2ZZ engines are now legal in FA (I assume that was your request). After reading a lot of information about these engines, there is a lot of potential in them - especially the 2ZZ engine. Crower makes some nice rods for these, and I'm sure they can build a crank too. Problem I see is that these engines are 1800cc - I believe FA still requires 1600cc maximum displacement.

Are you planning any development for these, now legal, engines?

Also, it seems to me it would be a beautiful replacement engine (almost out of the box) for Continentals. Since it is now going in the Lotus Elise, Toyota may have some interest.

[Ted and Nancy]

Randy you are on target with the "class philosophy" idea. I can remember a number of times that rule changes have turned down as not being within the "class philosophy". This happens in CSR/DSR frequently. I asked the comp boart to make this "class philosophy" avaliable to the members about 2 years ago.
My feeling is that it should state what the class is all about and not state specifics or be considered a rule for use by the tech people. It should be just a frame work that the rules would be built around. It should be reviewed every year to keep it up to date.
For example for CSR/DSR it might state that carbon tub construction is not within the "class philosophy" for a low production/home built amateur class. At some point this might need to be reviewed.

[Curtis Boggs]

Originally posted by RobLav:
there is a lot of potential in them - especially the 2ZZ engine.

Yea, and I know a cylinder head guy that does atlantic stuff, .. honda multi valve, .. Yammy R1s and LOVES development projects.

Curtis

[RobLav]

Yes Curtis, I know who that guy is... You did some head work for me on my Suzuki Hayabusa engine for my Van Diemen FS car - I gave you a few Pinto heads in return - remember? I'd like to see about developing this 2ZZ engine.

[Curtis Boggs]

Originally posted by RobLav:
I'd like to see about developing this 2ZZ engine.

Bring it on, .. .. .

Curtis

[Randy Cook]

Let's keep this discussion on the general subject of Class Philosophy please.

To that end, let's get the ball rolling with a few topics that should be covered in a "class philosophy".


1.Keep up with current technologies or restrict use of technical advances? (How much restriction is generally the arguement.)

2. How much accommodation for "Grandfather" exceptions do you want? (e.g. Special rules section for former SuperVee cars, weird body width rules for one old car's fuel cell that went over the body work width limit, etc.)

3.Engine rules:
Full racing engines of limited capacity? Production auto based engines of limited capacity? Motorcycle engines? Rotary engines. Air flow restriced engine? Long life (low rev)spec engine? Or a hodgepodge of various engines with restriction attempts to equalize them?

4.Chassis:
Wings, how big? Ground effects, restricted in anyway? Tires and wheels width restrictions?


For a couple of way too simple examples, hypothetical class philosophies could take the form of:

"Sports Racing X" is an open class in which restrictions on chassis and drive train are unlimited and the only restriction is that fuel is 92 octane pump gas and this fuel must flow through a standard regulating device to limit fuel flowing to the engine to a maximum of 50 lb/hour. It is the intention of the participants to enjoy development of racing automobile technology within this framework.

Or perhaps:
Formula X is a fully restricted class in which the intention of participants is solely to test their driving skills in cars equally prepared by a single designated shop. Cars are to be tested on chassis dynos and 7-post test rigs in preparation for each event to ensure equality and cars are assign by lottery on pregrid.

Somewhere between these two extremes, I think we could come to an agreement as to what Formula Atlantic is about for us, as a group.

The question of Class Philosophy is really; what attracts you to FA and causes you to put your energy into it, what turns you on about it?

We need to have this stated in writing because without it in writing and present in front of the SCCA community, forces not in your direct control could much more easily make changes that would cause you to lose your interest.

Please help keep that from happening!

[Stan Clayton]

Randy,

I know you and I have had some philosophical discussions about FA over the years, so I'm confident that you have a 'class philosophy' in mind. Why don't you share it with us?

Yeah, it'll get beat up, but that's the price of leadership...

[Brooks O'Brien]

Any class philosophy should address the issue of costs. Formula atlantic rules currently are open enough to require the 400 to 500k per season that I am reliably told is being being spent in this class( for a plastic trophy?).The easiest way to kill of participation is to escilate costs to where only multi-millionares, and trust fund kids can play. Rember ASR?, BSR?, the original formula A (f-5000)? only realestate magnate Jerry Hanson could eventually afford those classes. How many mult-millionare open wheel racers are there? Open the rules up more and we will find out.Frankly, club formula atlantic needs the far more numerous idiots "spear-carriers"like me who actually have to work for a living and maybe can waste 50 k or so for the chance to enjoy driving a sophisticated,fast and technically interesting cars. I know I can not afford to drive as hard as a wealthy guy because a hard crash ends my season,but also I shouldn't be lapped at every race either,otherwise I get frustrated and go vintage racing. I say keep the rules to accomidate as wide a varriety of avaliable "hand me down" pro cars as possible Keep spec cars and the scca out of the class as much as possible, keep fat tires, down force,twin cam motors, big brakes in.

[Rennie Clayton]

Brooks,

Fear not, it does not require $400-$500k per year to win or even compete for the National Championship. More like around $25k, and for that price you get the June Springs / Triple Crown Championship thrown in for good measure. If you try really hard, you might even get the President's Cup with that. Or so I've been told.



Rennie Clayton

[Brooks O'Brien]

25k? Great,Done. Do I get a Ralt41 and a couple of tricked out Loynings too? I assume this includes a tow rig and crew, lots of testing too, right? I will be happy to send you a check tomorow! What is your address. Just a thought, what sort of lap times do you suppose A.J. Allmindinger would turn on the short Mid-Ohio course with a maxed out club spec atlantic car? They were in the 1.15's I believe at the last pro event there,so I would guess with sticky tires 10%more power at least 1.12 or 13's. What was a good time at this years runnoffs 1.18 ? Not even close really. The big dollars are being in club racing now. Basically it seems to me that if rich guys Connor or Biangardi or French decide they want to to win the runnoffs this year it will be tough for mere mortals to compete on raw speed, not on 25k. Heck I'll send you 30k if you can arrange this for me! I will be your new best friend.

[David Ferguson]

He's not saying you can do, just that he did it for $25k. No spare enigine, no fancy crew, just hard work and a skilled, fearless driver who could get back in a car after putting it in the fence and with no shakedown time, still put it on the front row. Gotta hand it to him.

[Stan Clayton]

Brooks,

Seriously, $25k is what Rennie and I spent last year between the two of us. The year before, we spent about $5k more as we upgraded our one-and-only 1997 pro-spec engine with a lighter crank and longer rods. FWIW, Rennie and I are both working stiffs like you, and aside from the free tires Ren gets by winning nationals (and the Runoffs), we have no outside sponsorhip. No special engine deals with Arne, no sweet prices, nada.

I bought a 7-year old used 24' box trailer, and towed it with either our '66 GMC or our '76 E-250 until this year, when I bought a used Ford with a PSD. Rennie, Patti and I, along with our long time racing buddy Dave Rich do all the work on the car (except when fellow competitors are helping us rebuild it in the middle of the night at the Runoffs...). Arne does the motor. Craig does the gearbox. Either Algie Composites or Advanced Composites do any tub-related work, but in all cases, we are cash-paying customers. Not even free oil.

That having been said, from a philosophical standpoint, I still favor a very high-end, open formula class at the top of the formula heap. Sort of like GT-1 for tin tops, I guess. So count me in for a 'formula' with tiny screamer motors, open ground effects, fat tires, et al.

From Randy's opening post, I gather that he is uncomfortable with the inclusion of non pro spec cars. In the narrowest sense, that would eliminate rotaries, motorcycle engines, Cosworths, VW's, etc., which I feel is too restrictive for club Atlantics. AFAIK, it was always envisioned as an 'open' class where so long as your car met safety and certain styling characteristics, it could compete. To me that means tube frames, composite and aluminum tubs should all be able to compete.

Arbitrarily restricting composite tubs to expensive pro-built models is counter to the open philosophy of the class, IMO. So is restricting engines to the 4age, or for that matter 1600cc. Maybe there is room for an F3-style engine configuration. In any case, I think this is a great discussion topic and look forward to hearing Randy's thoughts.

[RobLav]

I could not agree with you more Stan.

[Dan Kennison]

My two cents.

It seem that after the initial cost of obtaining the car and (excluding any crash damage) the big cost is 700 miles on a motor. Tires are tires. Gas is Gas. Tow vehicles, trailers, helmets, drivers suites and hamburgers are all the same no matter what you are driving.

I do this for fun. Thats my motivation. That includes the freinds, family and competitors I can enjoy time with; I show off a bit and sit in the sun.

I like working on the car at home in my shop.

I came from FC and have seen what the z tech has done for the pro series. There is no more blowing up engines trying to get 3 more hp. Look at Sebring this year and compare it to two years ago and see how many people are changing engines at midnight. I'll bet you there will be none.

Why not look at an s2000 motor. Rev's at 9,000 rpm, 100,000 mile waranty (not for racing but thats a testament to reliability), 250hp out of the box, 5,000 miles minimum between rebuilds.

Can you imagine how many more people we could race with if you got five seasons out of a motor. I know I would be doing 10-12 races a year instead of trying to figure out how many races and test days will fit into 700 miles.

Dan Kennison

[Brooks O'Brien]

Damn, I just cleaned off my mantle to make room for all my trophies.I hoped that if I could wear my run-ons gold medal to bars, maybe chicks would finally dig me,guess not.

[Charles Livingston]

Stan,
I assume the $25K does not include the initial price of the car, right? Generally how much would it cost to purchase a car similar to yours?

[Stan Clayton]

Correct, Charles. $25k does not include the price of a car. It does include engine and gearbox rebuilds, entry fees, tires and other consumables, travel, etc., if you and a few buddies do all the grunt work.

Prices for Atlantics are all over the board. In the past year I've seen DB4 rollers for as little as $20k, and 008a's as low as $35k. OTOH, I saw a low time RT41 roller advertised at $65k. While I don't know what offering prices sellers are accepting in the end, I suspect that you would have a very tough time finding a complete RT41 roller for much less than about $55k, with no spares. I would guess about the same price for a 014a. Those are pure guesses, mind you, and could be considerably off in either direction.

Engines are just as variable. I've seen mid-time club motors for under $10k, but a new, state-of-the-art Toyota or Cosworth will probably run at least 3 times that. A Mazda 12a will be somewhat less.

Hope that helps.

[Charles Livingston]

Thanks Stan. These days new DSR's and S2's are 60,000 anyway, and although operating costs can be lower I'm sure some S2/DSR guys are spending way more than $25K. Unfortunately it will be a long time before I have a budget anywhere near what it takes to run any of those cars at a runoffs competitive level.

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, I understand your situation, Charles. It took me nearly 30 years of work, saving and investing to get far enough ahead to feel able to invest in a Ralt. Fortunately, that timing coincided with my son reaching an age and ability commensurate with the car.