Bead seat vs the foam seat

[LolaT440]

I have never touched a bead seat so it may be pretty strong. I am more familiar with stock cars and usually install pretty substantial aluminum seats from LaJoie or Kirkey. I am not trying to be critical and appreciate all the comments.

I may go overboard and my car may be the weight of a freight train. Maybe there is a grey area here, If I took a photo of the Lola 440 chassis you would know why I am concerned. It is a tin can with a motor and tires attached. It should be outlawed, but it is what I have at the moment.

JC

[Thomas Copeland]

Richard,

I'm not so sure it's really possible for everybody to get seat made in the matter you describe.

Here is a little known fact:

Most of us won't fit in a Van Dieman with attached upper side panels. I don't. We all ain't puny horse jockey sized (somebody send a memo to Van Diemen quick!)....in fact most of the cars I've raced in didn't have upper side panel protection.....in fact I don't think any of them has ever had...and that's going back to 1979.

So without upper side panels to contain the seat how are you going to achieve what you suggest?

I just had Troy do a beaded seat for me (btw, the best seat I've ever sat in in a race car). In my case there are no side "wings" on the seat but there is lateral support toward the bottom of the seat which is contained within the lower side panels. The side profile is quite a bit more narrow that the one shown in the photo. Thick at the bottom tapering to only about 1 inch at the top.

Is it just a matter of glassing the exterior of the seat (it's already a made of a beaded resin) to strengthen it in a side impact? Without upper side panels I'm thinking in any side impact the beaded seat is the last thing I have to worry about.

Also, I noticed that in the photo Doug doesn't have the bottom side panels attached. Doug, you ain't racing like that are ya? Seriously, I don't think he is, he's showing it like that for clarity.

Is it just the lower side panels you are talking about?

[R. Pare]

In the vast majority of cars, the only panels available to captivate the seat are from the waist-high rails on downwards. For the most part, older cars only have exterior panels in that area, and they are usually very flimsily attached -ie - they ain't gonna support even 1g of driver weight in a lateral crash, never mind support 50 or 60 g's worth.

For those cars, it is almost always possible to fabricate interior panels for those areas that can be attached via rivits or button head cap screws into rivnuts in the tubes, or to added-in tabs.

For upper torso support, very few cars again have much there from the factory, but it can always be added, even in the most cramped of cockpits. Tabs to bolt the panels to can be welded in, and the panels can go right against the insides of the body panels - surely .060" of panels on each side of your shoulders is not going to make it too tight!

Generally, the sides of the seats for these cars are not going to go even up to your armpits (because of arm position), and none that I know of (except ours) have space for much of anything besides your shoulders. Not having any padding on support panels besides your shoulders, while not the most ideal thing in a crash, is a ton better than no lateral shoulder support at all.

[dereklola]

OK - two months have gone by since the last post - has anyone experimented with sculpting slab foam into a seat - the Pare method? Ready to post our experiences?

And I'd still like to know if the slabs normally go horizontally, vertically, same slope as the seat back panel etc. Anyone?

[Whoomah]

I looked into the foam slabs locally and was not impressed by the quality, thickness, density, and price at the home improvement stores. I am going to look around at some other stores to see if there is any better product. I think with the amount of work involved, when I value my time, the slab seat still costs about the same as a poured seat.
The local boat shop was WAY too proud of their 2 part foam. I will probably order some online at a 1/4 of the cost. I have seen a few different densities available. 2# is the most common, but I have seen 3# and up. I am wondering if the 3# would be better suited to this application.

If I do end up trying both methods, I will post the results.

Curt

[R. Pare]

You can get panels from McMaster-Carr that will do the job very nicely. Even the panels I've seen at Home Depot will be a lot better than a 2-part foam ever thought of being, and are actually almost as good for our purposes in their crush characteristics as the bead seats. The big drawback is the amount of work involved and the mess that has to be cleaned up afterwards!

[R. Pare]

And I'd still like to know if the slabs normally go horizontally, vertically, same slope as the seat back panel etc. Anyone?

You will use one panel (or 2) for the seat back against the back panel, and 2 on the sides against the side panels, with smaller glued-in pieces to shape the curves from one panel to the other and for lumbar support. On most cars you will need to split the seat down the middle lengthwise to facilitate insertion and removal (cut at a 45 degree angle so that one side overlaps the other and so that the seam is not right at the centerline of your spinal column.)

[dereklola]

Richard - thx - Derek

[Steve Maxwell]

Sorry I'm a little late on this thread but I have a lot of experience with both foam and bead seats. The two part foam seats are not safe. They basically shatter on impact and have very little energy absorbtion. Just take a scrap and hit it with a hammer. Then take some packing material made of poly styrene(white beaded foam ) and repeat. I was siting in a bead seat when I put a Db-1 very hard into the uphill corner (3rd flat at about 110 mph) at Lime Rock (apex joint failure). The chassis rails, all of them, adjacent to my upper thigh were deflected about six inches inward. I constructed the bead seat to wrap around my thighs and ribs. I then covered the bead seat in Kevlar. After the wreck the seat was broken into about four pieces and the kevlar held it all together. I am convinced that a foam seat would have basically turned to gravel sized chunks and that I would not have walked away from that wreck. Bead seats are easy to build, not messy and worth every penny. I plan on installing one in the Piper I just bought. Hope this helps with all of the poeple who are on the fence about this.
SM

[Scott Hanba]

This seat construction requires the panels to be inside of the frame rails to provide adequate support should you slide sideways into something rigid. But, I wonder in a T-bone situation, do the same panels need to be secured to the frame somehow to help absorb the energy of a projectile trying to enter that area? Another panel on the outside of the frame?

[Steve Demeter]

Yes to provide optimum protection in a T bone situation they would need to be well fastened to the frame. However, the construction rules do not allow any panel other than the belly pan to be attached with anything closer than 6" centers. So you could rivet the side panels every 6 inches. IMHO, not very good.


I would put an additional panel of the outside of the frame if you really wanted to do it right.

Or perhape reinforce the body.

[R. Pare]

Scott:

The panels to support the seat and the anti-intrusion panels are two different items. The GCR already requires a minimum 2 layer kevlar panel on the outside of the frame rails or as part of the side pods.

[PK]

Once the shaping is done, coat the seat with a layer of epoxy resin, and cover the backsides with a layer of glass cloth. After the resin is hard, you can glue on any covering material you want to use.

Richard,

Can polyester resin as normally used for fiberglass be used for the coating and the backside cloth layer? Or does it really need to be eposy resin?

Thanks,
Phil

[R. Pare]

Polyester resin will melt the styrofoam.

[Whoomah]

I need a seat for the FC I just bought and was going to go the old 2 part foam route, but have decided to stick with the beaded style instead.

I just picked up a bunch of EPS today at work (zero cost). I am going to give it a try to shape a seat. Shop vac at the ready. Since work is busy, it is going to be an extended process. However, with my 6'1", 195# frame in a VD RF93, I am thinking I will have tons of left over EPS sheets/blocks.

Richard,
I noticed that some of the EPS I got seems to have a little higher density than others. You mentioned having a homogenous density throughout the seat. So would it be better to use the higher density EPS? There isn't a lot of density difference, but it is noticeable. Do you believe that it is enough to warrant sticking with a single density? Thanks

Curt

[R. Pare]

Generally speaking, the denser stuff is better. If you ever took apart the liner to your helmet, you'd notice that the beads are extremely small.

Much of the EPS made into things like coolers are actually a bit over-expanded - they are trying to use the least amount of material as possible, and in the case of coolers, get as much trapped air as possible. Most of the good quality board I've found looks to have beads about the same size as that used by the Indy cars for their surrounds - beads about 1/8" in diameter.

[iracer]

Hi Guys, one of the earlier posts refered to making a seat bag out of sewn together Naugahide (vinyl) and then pouring in the two part foam. I usually use the garbage bag trick and then get frustrated trying to cover it later and make it look reasonable. I just completed a new seat with the vinyl bag trick and it is awesome ! Thanks for the tip. I will be making all my seats this way in the future.

[L TAPP]

As Is Often Said
A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words
I Am Sure There Are Many Of Us Who Have Watched This Post That Would Like To See The Outcome Of These Different Styles Of Seat Construction
Thank You All
Larry Tapp

[Matt Conrad]

I really think this is one of those areas where people need to spend the money to get a Bead Seat. I know it seems like alot of money, but what's $300? Probably less than your entry fees for your last Double Event....a third of that highly paint job on your helmet cost...and it could save you from a serious injury that could affect the rest of your life.

I recently had a major crash at Phoenix International Raceway and I think the combination of all of the safety devices I was wearing/using/or hit contributed to me being able to almost walk away. I impacted another car at 130 mph, went airborne (hooorah) and 3.8 seconds later contacted the SAFER barrier between NASCAR 1 & 2 at PIR. The impact into the wall was at about a 45 degree angle and at 117 mph. I did suffer a cracked ankle from a broken chassis rail/a-arm that came into the cockpit....another thread some other time....but other than that I had no other injuries, soreness or anything.

I'm confident that without the Hans Device, Bead Seat, SAFER Barrier, being properly buckled into the car, and having a properly fitted helmet, that I would have been seriously injured in the crash.

Matt Conrad
Phoenix Race Cars, Inc.

[Foamguy]

Hey guys, I'm new to this site but wanted to chime in regarding the bead seat vs. foam seat post.

I think Matt said it best, it's a combination of all the safety gear that allows you to lessen the risk of injury.

I work for Createc Corporation. Createc is one of the nation's largest beaded foam molders. You see our foam and designs everytime you open a HP printer, Microsoft x-box, RCA flat panel TV etc. You may not relaize that we also provide a majority of molded foam parts for your passenger cars. Everything from front and rear bumpers, headliners, pillar trim, headrest and seating systems to name few.

We are also invovled in Auto racing, provding helmet liners for major racing helmet companies, and head collars for IRL, CHAMPCAR, and NASCAR as well as seat design and testing for all types of racing series.

What I can tell you is that the amount of testing information available is overwhelming and that there is a huge difference between standard packing grade beaded foams and automotive grade foams. Most packaging grade material is not fire retardant. I know this might seem a mute point but my guess is no one wants to help the situation if a fire occurs.

Any beaded seat will allow for better energy management than a two part foam system or a urethan type cushion. I'd be happy to provide data if anyone has doubts.

You will never find standard EPS molded parts in you cars. This is beacause the material will break down over time and it is not designed to take multiple impacts. It's overall purpose is to protect your $400 Dell computer when the local delivery guy or retail warehouse staff knocks it off the shelf. When that happens, it crushes where we've designed the packaging to crush and hopefully that allows the computer or whatever the ability to withstand the impact.

The foam that is required for use in the automotive industry is fire retardant first off, second, provides more energy management capabilites than standard EPS and third normally allows for multiple impacts. (You wouldn't want the dashboard in your car to have numerous indentions everytime someone pushes on it). The same can be said about the bumpers etc.

We have been working with a bead seat company and major race series for the past three years on the development of a better more dynamic seating system for race cars.

We currently supply the automotive grade material to Bald Spot Sports for use in their seat kits and custom seats. (www.baldspotsports.com).

You should check out their site or call them to learn more about test data be it from hydraulic sleds or Snell type drop tests. Also, feel free to contact me if you have specific questions. I'd be glad to offer my thoughts / opinions on any "FOAM" questions.


-Cameron

[carnut169]

Thats great- a resident expert.


Thanks for sharing Cameron.

[Mark_Silverberg]

I have used two part foam seats, attempted a bead seat and settled on an alternative. I am a fairly large individual (205 lbs, 6 feet 3.75") and run a vintage FV (Zink). I have a custom aluminum seat to put me as low in the car as possible ( I still sit very high) The issue I had with the bead seat is that the viscosity and density of the material did not allow me so displace enough material to sit as low in the car as I wanted. It may have worked if I would have used two bags for the bead seat (similar to what I used for the foam seat) - but at $200 a pop it is getting kind of expensive for a trial and error process. In addition it is very difficult to insure the recomended foam thickness is maintained behind you back with either beads or two part foam.

What I ended up doing was making a seat insert which used EPS boad to insure the desired foam back rest thickness was maintained and then used two part foam to provide some of the contour around my back and shoulders plus the support under my thighs. I inserted the foam board into the trash bag and then added the two part foam.

Is it as good at a bead seat. In looking at the two materials it is obvious that the bead seat is better - but only if you can get to the right position. Using a combination of the board and two part foam can provide some improvement over two part foam only with little incremental cost or effort - plus you can afford to make a mistake or two along the way - clearly the same is not true for a bead seat.

[PK]

Mark,

Just last night I was thinking about trying what you describe. Did you have any issues with either the foam not bonding to the EPS board or the foam 'eating' the EPS? Those were the two potential issues I could envision.

Phil

[Mark_Silverberg]

I did not have any issues with bonding or melting. Remember the seat is just an insert in an Aluminum shell. The shell holds everthing together very tightly. I am not sure this method would work without a lot of containment around the seat - the same is true for a bead seat as well.

[racer27]

I went the R. Pare route with the seat for my Citation FC. The seat is fully supported from the rear and below the waist.

I purchased a package of 1" think, by 12" wide by 4' long White Styrofoam Panels from home depot ($5) Using a long fine tooth knife I cut the basic shape. I glued it up with 3M Spray adhiesive ($8) (Make sure it does not melt the styrofoam). Shaping was done outside with a orbatal sander. If you need to add more, cut a strip, glue it on wiat to dry then fine tune shape. Done outside process was not messy at all. If I exclude glue trying time, took about 1 hr. Next time instead of gettign 1" sheets, I'd get 3 or 4" thick sheets and grind away what I don't need. With course sandpaper on the sander it grinded away easy. Only took a few min to grind out 1-1/2" X 20" Tall by 12" wid channel for my back. I ended up with about 2-1/2" directly behind my back (Totally carved out with sander) and 4-1/2" side support by torso and shoulder. I covered it all with a Sweatshirt, turned inside out. Came out quite good. Sturdy, light, cheap and easility modifiable until we get it 100% correct. As you need more or less support, simply add or remove more material. In order to raise the seatback height above the fuel cell covering (I wanted support right to the bottom of the HANS) I stacked 5 pieces of foam on the top of the horizontial cell cover. Seat is secure due to Aliumniumn panels, but I added velcro for extra security. I'll psot a pick when I get the car out of the trailer.

[D.T. Benner]

To anyone who is going to make a seat from Two Part Foam for the first time. Use a very tall trash bag and have at least 2 friends there to help. One to hold the bag and one to mix and pour the foam. YOU will be sitting in the car on the empty bag making driver noises. Last time I did one of these I had only one helper (who was not the brightest bulb in the pack) and he mixed up more foam than I wanted and it overflowed out the top of the bag! It took hours to get it off my helmet and I ended up cutting off the hair on the back of my head. I was just thinking of this because I have on the shirt I was wearing that day and the foam has never come off no matter how many times I wash it! Now I just wear it for changing gears in the LD as I don't care if it gets stained.

[dereklola]

- following on DT's comments - do yourself a favor and use a decorator' drop sheet over the front, cockpit and rear of the car [and the floor] before you sit in and start foaming. You just never know! Better safe than sorry. Cheap insurance.

[D.T. Benner]

I did all that and saved getting it on the car! I would not even want to THINK about getting foam off of or out of the race car!

[JHandley]

Hey all,
Reading this post I have decided on the bead seat kit.
A couple of questions for anyone kind enough to respond:

1) I am 6'3" Tall, 195 lbs , slender build. My 84 reynard has a fair amout of cockpit room. Any suggestions on what size seat kit to purchase when the time comes?

2) How is the seat secured to the car?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Jeff

[Bob Wright]

Call John Goss at Pennon- He'll send you the right amount of beads. He knows the various cars' cockpit sizes. Also talk to him about what to put on the outside of the seat (fiberglass or kevlar, etc) and some of the tricks to making it.

[Whoomah]

Hey all,
Reading this post I have decided on the bead seat kit.
A couple of questions for anyone kind enough to respond:

1) I am 6'3" Tall, 195 lbs , slender build. My 84 reynard has a fair amout of cockpit room. Any suggestions on what size seat kit to purchase when the time comes?

2) How is the seat secured to the car?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Jeff

I used the Small Bald Spot Sports seat kit for my VD RF 93. I am 6'1" 200. This kit worked really well. In some ways I wish I had removed some of the beads, but it provided a seat the ran from the very top of the rear bulkhead to the top of the firebottle cover, with a generous amount of side support. The seat itself just sits in place, albeit very snug to the frame tubes. I did not allow it to wrap around the tubes though so I could remove it.

Curt

[Foamguy]

I still have a hard time beliving there's real data that supports the position that bead seats are more energy absorbent in this application. Lots of surface area, soft tissues - it's not the same as a helmet.

I would be happy to provide you with any testing results that you would like regarding the types of foam. there is a significant difference in the bead kits that are offered by pennon, indi seat and Bald Spot Sports.

Pennon and Indi seat are an eps kit (expanded polystyrene / normal packaging foam or coffee cup to the common folk).

BSS has a seat kit that offers better energy management that is a much easier kit to use because you don't have to do the dry fitting etc. the whole purpose for a custom seat is for safety to fill in the voids around your body. I don't really recommend glueing pieces of foam together and then carve them down until you get a snug fit.

To cover the seat all you need is some nomex material and adhesive spray.
Hope all of this helps.

[turnbaugh]

I just finished my bead seat and it turned out nicely. One trick I thought I would pass along was put an old blanket in the cockpit as a liner after you block all the big tubes, etc. that the beads can get under. Then put the bead bag in on top of the blanket. The blanket did three things for me. 1) It blocked any small nooks that the beads could get locked into. 2) It gave me a little extra tolerance around the seat so when I put the Kevlar on the back of the seat it didn't make the fit too tight and 3) After the seat was cured and I wanted to get it out of the cockpit, I pulled up the blanket, squeezed the ends together and the seat came right out without any damage.

p.s. I found the Kevlar cloth pretty easy to work with.

Dean

[RacersIMC]

I would have to agree 100% with FOAMGUY, Baldsposports.com seats are the only way to go, it was well worth the money. We bought the kit, and followed the directions and the seat came out very well. I will admit, it was a challenge, you have to be patient when carving and shaping the seat. We installed it in a FSCCA car. You have to think ahead a little on how you are going to remove it when it is in the finished state. We cut ours down the middle of the seat so we could remove it. It has been in and out of the car several times with no problem. good luck!

[JHandley]

Greta advice, guys.
Dean, thats a neat little trick you used, makes sense to me.
I did find out that I need a small seat kit.
Will get one when the car is about done.
Thanx everyone

[John LaRue]

I constructed a bead seat from the Baldspot kit and it worked great. I permitted the seat to expand into the cavities between the frame to give me some extra support, but had to plan how to cut the seat to get it out. I used the small kit which was more than enough. A couple of tips from my experience:

1) Make certain to not draw too much vacum - I just used a small shop vac and pierced numerous holes in the suction line to reduce the PSI.

2) I taped carboard to the outside of the frame and used this as a "backer" instead of the body. This made it much easier to work with the seat.

3) Buy the hot knife - I would hate to think how tough it would be to cut the seat without one.

4) Try to avoid cutting down the center of the back as this is one of the primary areas in which you are looking for protection. I cut up both sides. Diagonally would appear to be another excellent way to cut the seat.

5) You can use a 3" sander quite effectively to shape the seat.

6) Plan on the project taking the better part of a weekend.

7) I used more than one roll of tape - buy extra!

[turnbaugh]

An regular electric knife that you use to carve the turkey works great on the bead seat.

[turnbaugh]

I found that using the blanket trick, I didn't have to cut the seat to get it out. The cockpit of the FSCCA even angles in at the top.

[chuckj]

To cut and trim the seat, rather than spending the bucks on an electric hot knife, buy a cheap carving knife with a wooden handle and heat it with a propane torch. Also, to cut the seat belt holes I took a scrap piece of 2.25 inch exhaust pipe, squeezed it in a vice to oval it somewhat, heated it (had to use oxy/actl as the propane was just to small to heat that much metal) and pushed it through the seat at the proper angle. Worked great, have used that several times. Be careful with the hole punching as you can set the foam on fire but it is no big deal to blow out. Also, using one of the 3M paint strippers works really great on shaping the foam, do it outside as it makes a mess. I give top grades to the Bald Spot kit.
Chuck

[Zcurves]

How much were the Baldspot Seat Kits?