Runs on Hoosier 25Bs

[loudes13]

So at a big event, would you run stickers or would you scrub stickers the week before?

what's faster?

[rrobb]

A lot of the fast A6 guys say that a scrub helps, but not all of them (i. e. Braun - fresh set of mounted stickers for each run at Nationals).

Weather the same ideas transfer to real race tires...

I think that a few runs on the practice course the day before should be good for a scrub, but I really have no experience.

[RudeDude]

I will try the goat P at least once.
Mark

Mark,

Have you gotten around to try the Goat P? If so, what kind of result did you experience?

Thanks,

[mwizard]

Mark,

Have you gotten around to try the Goat P? If so, what kind of result did you experience?

Thanks,

Not yet. I just replace the last set of tires, at about 140 runs, and don't have extra rims to save them to(yet). My latest tires have over 90 runs on them so will soon be candidates. I have a durometer so can do some quantitative tests.
Mark

[Dick R.]

FYI:

My first set of R25B's for this season are now at about 54 runs after 16 runs at the Toledo Pro. All runs have been in hot to HOT weather and the car has been towed on an open trailer with pallet wrap around the tread and white RV tire covers over the tires for the long tows to minimize wind and UV.

According to my DL1 data (smoothed over 0.3 seconds) grip consistently reached 1.5 to over 1.7 g on the last day even though many of the Pro R1 guys including me thought that grip was lower on Sunday. Toledo has incredible grip. My slicks and many of the DOT R tires were squealing at the launch and I got minor tire hop on Sunday instead of just a little wheel spin.

Dick

[F five hunj]

FYI:

My first set of R25B's for this season are now at about 54 runs after 16 runs at the Toledo Pro. All runs have been in hot to HOT weather and the car has been towed on an open trailer with pallet wrap around the tread and white RV tire covers over the tires for the long tows to minimize wind and UV.

According to my DL1 data (smoothed over 0.3 seconds) grip consistently reached 1.5 to over 1.7 g on the last day even though many of the Pro R1 guys including me thought that grip was lower on Sunday. Toledo has incredible grip. My slicks and many of the DOT R tires were squealing at the launch and I got minor tire hop on Sunday instead of just a little wheel spin.

Dick

My aim data @ 10hz sample showed peaks in the 1.8-1.9 range on Sunday, about a tenth lower on Saturday. Launch peaks were almost 1.1 for a very brief moment.

[Dick R.]

My aim data @ 10hz sample showed peaks in the 1.8-1.9 range on Sunday, about a tenth lower on Saturday. Launch peaks were almost 1.1 for a very brief moment.

Jeff or Stefan?

Assuming the data is comparable (who knows) just another reason you and your brother are so fast in addition to driver talent, car width, and who knows what others . . .

My launches were also just over 1 g briefly also. SCCA hasn't posted Sunday's 60 ft times but Jeff's 60' times were roughly 1/10th quicker than mine Saturday which is kind of amazing consider how different an F500 is from a FF. With mine it was just rev to around 4 - 5K based on noise level and remove foot from clutch quickly . Congrats to Jeff on top PAX also with Ron and Clemens right behind.

Dick

[mwood]

Bringing this thread back to life, because I'm a little confused.

I've yet to run my car on fresh tires. I bought it with early 2010 build Hoosiers that had about 25 runs on them or so. Since, I've put another 65-70 runs on them...so, they should be toast, right?

But, they still get pretty sticky, when warm, and are still under 60 on the durometer (like 56-60, depending on where on the tread surface I poke 'em). They feel pretty good, easy to drive on and progressive in break away, but they do get greasy with heat.

So, what am I really giving up by continuing to run this set?

Also, should I expect the car to tighten up/push when I break down and buy some freshies?

[Dick R.]

Bringing this thread back to life, because I'm a little confused.

I've yet to run my car on fresh tires. I bought it with early 2010 build Hoosiers that had about 25 runs on them or so. Since, I've put another 65-70 runs on them...so, they should be toast, right?

But, they still get pretty sticky, when warm, and are still under 60 on the durometer (like 56-60, depending on where on the tread surface I poke 'em). They feel pretty good, easy to drive on and progressive in break away, but they do get greasy with heat.

So, what am I really giving up by continuing to run this set?

Also, should I expect the car to tighten up/push when I break down and buy some freshies?

Hopefully the FAST guys will comment but here is my 2 cents.

"In the old days" with older tires versus new tires the overall grip improvement was significant with the ability to put power down without wheelspin and/or power oversteer being the most noticeable in autocross IN MY CAR. This was especially true in colder temps than you normally see in CA.

I was surprised with how little difference in grip there was at the Peru, IN site between a 70 run set used for a TnT and a brand new set used for the Tour on the same site. However, the TnT was in hotter conditions and I took many back to back runs. The Tour was cooler and with no co driver they started cold and really never got anywhere nearly as hot as the old set got in the TnT. The biggest noticeable change was little or no wheel spin in a similar high speed element with the new tires compared to the old tires through the same element at the same place on the site.

FYI due to "excessive tire and wheel purchases" this year I currently have mounted a 70 run set, an 18 run set, and a 4 run set. This doesn't count the mounted "no run" Wets also purchased this year. Obviously the 70 run set is relegated to rim protector status while I attempt to get my money's worth out of the barely used tires before "calendar time" kills them.

Dick
CM 85

[jim murphy]

I still get longer life out of my tires by coating them before every event. My new tires are always for Nationals then to NT's and finally local events. When the "local only" tires run out of tread to be softened again is when they are tossed - usually three years later. Coating works best in autox because you have many heat cycles without much tread wear. It is just the opposite for road racing as there is a lot of tread wear per heat cycle. Coating will never bring the tires back to new grip, it only increases the grip to better than if they were run dried out.

Jim

[iamuwere]

Bringing this thread back to life, because I'm a little confused.

I've yet to run my car on fresh tires. I bought it with early 2010 build Hoosiers that had about 25 runs on them or so. Since, I've put another 65-70 runs on them...so, they should be toast, right?

But, they still get pretty sticky, when warm, and are still under 60 on the durometer (like 56-60, depending on where on the tread surface I poke 'em). They feel pretty good, easy to drive on and progressive in break away, but they do get greasy with heat.

So, what am I really giving up by continuing to run this set?

Also, should I expect the car to tighten up/push when I break down and buy some freshies?

In autocross, I always found the front of the car to be more notably improved over the rear in a turn but you realize as well that there is a lot less rear end excitement overall.

Durometer is meaningless as far as I am concerned unless it is high----then they are really, really old.

You are using old tires.

[chrisw52]

I still get longer life out of my tires by coating them before every event. My new tires are always for Nationals then to NT's and finally local events. When the "local only" tires run out of tread to be softened again is when they are tossed - usually three years later. Coating works best in autox because you have many heat cycles without much tread wear. It is just the opposite for road racing as there is a lot of tread wear per heat cycle. Coating will never bring the tires back to new grip, it only increases the grip to better than if they were run dried out.

Jim

what do you use to coat the tires with?

[Dick R.]

We consistently get to about 120 runs before cords.

When the question is asked, "how many runs you can get out of a set?"

Well, if the guy(s) beating you is on new(er) tires. Then you need new tires.

I think Nick's answer in March is still the most accurate answer!

That said, it is just like anything else in racing. How fast do you want to go and how much money do you have . . . until the rubber is gone of course.

Dick

[RudeDude]

I was surprised with how little difference in grip there was at the Peru, IN site between a 70 run set used for a TnT and a brand new set used for the Tour on the same site. However, the TnT was in hotter conditions and I took many back to back runs. The Tour was cooler and with no co driver they started cold and really never got anywhere nearly as hot as the old set got in the TnT. The biggest noticeable change was little or no wheel spin in a similar high speed element with the new tires compared to the old tires through the same element at the same place on the site.

Dick
CM 85

I had the same experience when I tried a fresh set of Hoosiers for the first time just before Nationals. Until then, the freshest set of tires that I drove on had been one with 14 runs that came with the car.

With older tires the car is loose so I adjust for that. With newer tires, I set up the car looser to dial out the push they tend to give. With certain adjustments, the actual difference between new(er) and old (70-80 runs) seem to be very small.

[mwood]

Sho, interesting observations. Question I have is whether the set up you have is really optimized for the fresh tires or whether you are giving up grip at one end to balance the car on freshies?

I dunno. All I can say is that my car seemed to have pretty good balance and grip on the 90+ run/two year old tires this weekend!

And, as I said, they still felt really sticky to the touch, once heated up. When the tires really go off, do they still have that quality??

[iamuwere]

yes

[RudeDude]

Sho, interesting observations. Question I have is whether the set up you have is really optimized for the fresh tires or whether you are giving up grip at one end to balance the car on freshies?

I dunno. All I can say is that my car seemed to have pretty good balance and grip on the 90+ run/two year old tires this weekend!

And, as I said, they still felt really sticky to the touch, once heated up. When the tires really go off, do they still have that quality??

Mike, I bought my car in September 2011 from a man who won 2 national championships in it. I should assume that the car is optimized for the fresh tires. The "adjustments" that I do for older tires are only to lessen the front/rear air pressure bias (F15/R16 with new tires vs. F15/R15 with old) and/or to take some rebound in the rear. With these minor adjustments, the car seems to be pretty happy on older set of tires.

And yes, my 109-run set bought in Aug 2011 by the PO still has a lot of rubber left on them and felt pretty sticky to the touch when they were warm on this past Saturday.

[mwood]

Ah...I see, I thoiught you meant major changes to bars and stuff.

I might try to do a back-to-back with old tires and new tires, when I get around to buying 'em. I have a couple of sets of rims and can do a day with one of the local marque clubs, to ensure "test day" type of conditions. What might be even more interesting, in terms of minimizing noise, would be to do a straight skid pad test. That would answer the question, for me.

[RudeDude]

I totally agree that a back-to-back skid pad test between new and old tires will answer the question. If you get around to do the test, I hope you will share the results with us.

[jim murphy]

what do you use to coat the tires with?

I have been using Formula Vee Traction Treatment. On cleaned tires, it takes about 6 to 8 coats (coat every 12 hours) to saturate the tires. They are good for about 6 runs thus re-apply before every event. Others like Goat Pee which takes only one coat but smells awful thus you have to apply outdoors. Wrapping afterwards is also done.
This whole process is to reduce the cost of tires.

Jim

[rrobb]

There are a bunch of options out there.
The roundy-round boys take tire treatment pretty serious. A lot of tracks ban their use and have even gone so far as to use re-trained drug-sniffing dogs to catch people. Of course companies are now marketing "odorless" versions.
I haven't actually used any of them myself, but the information can be found.

[Locked]

Bringing this thread back to life, because I'm a little confused.

I've yet to run my car on fresh tires. I bought it with early 2010 build Hoosiers that had about 25 runs on them or so. Since, I've put another 65-70 runs on them...so, they should be toast, right?

But, they still get pretty sticky, when warm, and are still under 60 on the durometer (like 56-60, depending on where on the tread surface I poke 'em). They feel pretty good, easy to drive on and progressive in break away, but they do get greasy with heat.

So, what am I really giving up by continuing to run this set?

Also, should I expect the car to tighten up/push when I break down and buy some freshies?

On old tires, without question you will be getting wheelspin.. You also will be down on front grip. I can only speak to my car, but when it's been stable on old tires for the RIGHT reasons... Then putting on new tires doesn't induce understeer. It just means when I spin up that inside tire the car doesn't want to swap ends. If I over input the front on old tires I can induce understeer at will.. I've seen wheelspin in my data, and know the car was understeering in that same corner.

Swapping to new tires when my setup has been right just means I'm accelerating instead of spinning tires, and the front has enough grip for me to not have to be incredibly smooth.

Typically, when my car has been wrong on old tires, swapping to new tires it's still wrong.

How's that for not being very helpful.

If your car is "right" but on old tires, the clock will just show you are off the pace. If the car is "wrong" but on new tires.. the clock will still show you are off the pace.