FF2000 40th anniversary 2015?

Can anybody confirm or deny that next year is the 40th anniversary of ff2000?

Google seems to suggest that this is so, and the earliest ff2000 I know of was built in 77.

My end game on this is getting a single class run group of all pinto and zetec powered ff2000 next summer in the NW for a whole weekend, but need to get started on this now.

Additionally, I have floated this to the NWFC guys and they seem interested. Anybody else interested in making the trek up to the northwest for a really big single class run group of FC's of all shapes and sizes?

75 sounds about right:
http://www.historicff2000.co.uk/

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

75 sounds about right:
http://www.historicff2000.co.uk/

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Ya, this along with the 77 crossle I have seen were my only sources.

You can count me in.

Couple of facts guys.
Had we gone buy the UK start for FF1600 the wildly successful and well supported to the tune of over 200 cars [pre Fit I might add !] 2009 40th of FF in North America at Road America would have been in 2007 as the class began in the UK in 1967.
As the organizers of the FF 40th, myself and co-conspirator and co-organizer Steve Beeler agreed that the North American FF 40th would coincide with the first SCCA FF National Championship in 1969.
The first time a FF2000/Superford/Formula Continental spec 2 liter FF chassis won a National Championship was in 1988 when Claude Bourbonnais took the FC National Championship win in a Reynard SF87.
Not in any way intimating that the Superford, or FF2000, whatever classification one chooses to designate a sohc 2 liter Pinto powered FF car with wings didn't exist in England well before 1988 but as far as North America, correction SCCA In the USA, recognition the cars and class was 1988.
Further research will reveal the well supported and intensely competitive Canadian FF2000 series predates this time frame by many seasons, but if this celebration is at all related to SCCA and the US then accuracy demands attention to the facts as they stand.
The Players, the Export A, maybe even another series sponsors name Canadian FF2000 series certainly qualify as North American but in no way relate to below the border.
According to some preliminary research, mainly the Crossle production numbers, it appears FF2000/Superford first appeared in the UK as early as 1976 so a proper start date for the very first converted FF1600 into FF200 was indeed most likely 1975.
Further research required, as no doubt many here on apexspeed can shed light.
Was the first FF2000 a Lola ? A Reynard ? Curious minds want to know.....we need to hear from some UK thread readers.....
But one fact is undeniable, the first SCCA National Championship was awarded to Bourbonnaise in a 1987 Reynard running in the then newly restructured SCCA FC class at Road Atlanta.
By the way, the Zetec was not accepted as an alternate motor until 2006, so huge time difference there.
Carry on, have a blast whatever you guys do !

Thanks Mike. Appreciate the details.

This event would not be associated with scca, and would be as inclusive as possible to all iterations of ff2000. I think there are a couple of superfords up here that would be cool to include.

Random info: Looking at runoffs archives it looks like Formula C was changed to formula continental in 1979. I can't confirm a pinto until 1985, where the first db3 shows up, but I also don't know if some of the earlier makes were 2.0 cars or sv's.

Ah, more history, from one who lived it !
I love having a chance to paw through the plié of research pubs and books in my office and come up with old and forgotten factoids of our collective past.
When I won the SCCA FC National Championship in 1970 at the inaugural Road Atlanta version of the runoffs after it alternated between Riverside and Daytona [back to the future next year, slightly different road course layout, same geographic location...] the FC class was 1,100cc formula cars, many ex-F Juniors or more modern F3 cars with engine swaps to accommodate the recently obsoleted FJr class. My Brabham BT21 for instance had been a 6 speed hillclimb car in the UK ! 6 speed H-pattern, not a good way to go, even with a peaky 1,100cc motor !
We used Cosworth SCA and SCC single OHC motors both carbs and injection, F3 spec MAE Ford based, a few others, even a few guys experimented with bike motors !
The SCCA recognized Super Vee. the VWoA Pro Series they sanctioned to good effect running initially the air cooled Type 4 [I think, anyone confirm it was the Type 4 flat four ?] before going Rabbit water cooled motor superceding the oil leaker air cooled in I believe 1978 or maybe 1979.
As both FC and FSV were shrinking in Club Racing they combined both into Formula Continental in 1979. Allowing both the older air cooled and the water cooled in restricted form to run alongside the existing by now Cosworth 1,100cc 4 valve BDJ injected motors.
I know because in 1980 I was on the pole at Rd Atlanta in a Modus with a Cossie BDJ, an ex-UK F3 car. Myself and guy named John Fowler from WVA brought in two F3 Modus chassis and inserted BDJ's, made a great little fun race car.
Alongside that year on the front row was the well known motor builder Curtis Farley in a water cooled SV Argo, a newer version of Jo Marquardts Modus chassis. Curtis won and that followed on Tom Pomeroys 1979 FContinental win in another Argo I think water cooled but that might have been an air cooled ?
Regardless, the next 7 SCCA F Continental Nat Champs were all Ralt RT5 water cooled VWs, starting with Jim Hickman then 3 in a row for Terry McKennas then a further three in a row for Lou Rettenmeir.
Now, whjat was the question ?
Right, Ointo 2 liter OHC motors in F Continental.
As stated previously Bourbonnais was the first in the refettled FC class in 1988. I honestly have no recall of what ever happened to all the water cooled VW motored cars but the 1,100cc spec remained until, when as an option ? I do remember thinking maybe a decade ago a current then F3 car with all the goodies and a killer upgraded BDJ type motor would have been a great way to go. Then woke up the next morning and forgot all about it......
As an aside, FSV as a SCCA Club Racing class only existed from 1970, when Tom Davey won in a CT built Zeitler as noted in threads in the monoposto section of apexspeed, through until Floridas Mike Yoder won in 1978, Dave Yoders son, Dave having been a FC runner a decade previously !
So from 1988 until now F Continental has been the domain of the FF2000/Superford spec flat bottomed 2 liter Pinto sohc powered cars. They first appeared on the Club Racing scene in 1988 as SCCA changed the class.
Now, who researched the Canadian Pro Series ? Players may have been involved after they were the F Atlantic series sponsor for a number of years, certainly Export A cigs, wasn't Canadian Tire involved as well for a while ?
I have a cool memory of standing in the runoffs paddock in, I think, 1990 chatting with Curtis and Craig Taylor who won FC that year in a F2000 spec DB6, three decades of FC National Champs together. And all are still kicking and to some degree involved.
When my father-in-law Dan Carmichael passed last summer Craig, another ex-Navy pilot now involved in maintaining the history of Naval Aviation, was happy to accept my wife Tracys contribution of her fathers flight logs from WWII when flying fighters off carriers in the Pacific.
Hey, somehow it is all connected......man, this post is HUGE, my fingers are bleeding from all this typing, sorry to drone on.....
Confused ?
Join the club !

F2000 started in Canada in 83. It was in England for atleast 3 years before that. 1978 is probably pretty accurate. At some point, you will have to differentiate between prototypes, Formula Libre races, and proper F2000 events.

Very interesting read Sir Rand. The FSV's were reclassified into the FA class & allowed up to 1835cc's, but still not competitive with the true FA's. They make a good safe chassis to experiment with in Formula S. :revs:

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Originally Posted by Michael Rand

Confused ?
Join the club !

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Down the Rabbit hole we go.

Ok so, sourced from the old cooper series website (link no longer working), it is said that the origins are in 1974, according to both a men's magazine article as well as pacific f2000 website. No mention of a series in 1974 though, so probably just raced as fl.

CASC series in 83 was apparently called the "walter wolf formula ford pro series" and featured on track both ff1600 and ff2000 cars. Link to results here. Featured some interesting makes.

Searching more in depth through runoffs archives I found at least 3 pinto powered cars in 1985, none earlier than that. Stuart Crow in a Swift DB3 finished highest at 9th after starting 14th. Jonathan Holtzman and David Rosenberg both campaigned Reynard SF84's. Didn't search for VD's in the field as the list of VD at the runoffs through the ages is daunting to sort through. So their could have been more possibly. I have also heard rumors in the last few years that the swift that showed up was originally supposed to be ran by RK Smith at the runoffs as it was the car that he campaigned in and won the CASC canadian tire pro series that year, but was sold to Crow for the runoffs, who subsequently had issues in qualifying and couldn't make up enough ground in the race, but was still fast. Had RK been in it, who knows, could have had the first ford powered continental champ in 85. (Note to those reading, this could be total BS derived as the result of somebody blowing smoke up my A**, and if somebody knows otherwise I will differ to their knowledge)

So at the very least, next year is the 30th anniversary of ff2000 in the USA.

No knowledge of an English series yet around 1975.

Greg, aka Problemchild, to begin how is your health these days ?
My Crossle book, not the new one as I am anxiously awaiting delivery having it winging its way here from Neil Porter out west, but the small 6"tall by 8"long softback booklet produced in Ireland in 1988 by the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum wherein it shows the first Crossle FF2000 as the 31F of which 9 were produced though the time frame is unstated. Given its heritage of the FF1600 30F [one of which sits in my garage but housing a Fit ] and the 30F was produced in 1975-76 safe to assume the 31F appeared in 1976. The subsequent Crossle FF2000 offered was the 33F built in 1977-78 with a build number of 28 in total.
For the great many who never visited the Crossle "factory" it was an amazing fact that so many outstanding racing cars emerged from several simple barns, really, all connected to each other and to John and Rosemary and their childrens home. Simply incredible really.
What a fine man John was, he will be missed.
Anyway, as to FF2000/Superford. Crossle went on to build 5 41F cars in 1980, a single 46F and then some 51F and 56F versions of the largely Leslie Drysdale [shortly to start and continue as Mondiale after leaving Crossle] penned 50F and updated 55F F1600 cars.
Wait, what was the question ?
Was there a question ?
Well Greg, I think we can safely say FF2000/Superford began in the UK in the 1976-77 time frame but the exact year still to be determined.
More research needed !
Aside from Crossle, Lola and Reynard, other manufacturers of note, however shortlived, would include a Patrick Head of Williams fame designed Delta, the Rory Byrne of Bennetton and Ferrari fame designed Royales, and undoubtedly many other UK builders as that was the time frame for many many small manufacturers to startup and disappear in a few years time. Great times for many in the business without a doubt.
And Scott, absolutely, those Ralts formed the basis for so many other race cars. Many put fendered sports racer bodies on them and flew what with the far superior aerodynamics of enclosed wheels and suspension while maintaining the suspension and in some cases the tunnel ground effect aspects.

These guys should know
www.historicff2000.co.uk
Seems like 1975.

There is a pic of a Cape F2000. Hmmmm?

Went to England in February 84 to shop for a used F2000 car.
Brought home a VD RF82 with ex-Senna Rushen Green Nelson engine.
Rick Gorne at Reynard still owes me a set of wheels.
Went to all the factories, which after Reynard and VD, was a bunch of sheds.
Still trying to figure out what a gar-raje and al-you-minium is ;)

Great memories :thumbsup:

Well, if looking for FF1600 info one goes to the bible, aka Steve Nickless's Anatomy and Development of the Formula Ford Race Car.
And there on page 61 he notes that FF2000/Superford first appeared in the UK in 1975.
By the way, he further states that Sports 2000, a FF2000 with fenders but no wings by most peoples reckoning, appeared over there two years later in 1977.
I do well recall the first SCCA Sports 2000 National Championship being won in 1980 at Rd Atlanta after SCCA letting those few S2s in the country run as field fillers in BSR for a few seasons until, or if, the numbers grew.

Let's go with first sanctioned event in England. otherwise .....

saw first FF2000's, super ford 2000. or super cortina'-cortina GTs in very late 70's autoweek or sportscar, looks like they were running sanctioned in England, may even have been 80 or 81, funny, can almost remember that photo, single pole in back for wing, car facing 1/4 front n left. very 'next steppish' ........ i'm guessing in 75 someone did the simple engine mount add rear wing move, dunno ...................................... Tom Pomeroy won in 78 in a air-cooled old Lola (think 252)but was disqualified because of cariilo rods instead of tyoe 4 VW 411 or 914 porsche, officials got suspicious when they saw his 'most likely Smiths Tach' tell tale on 9600 ......needless to say moved me from 9th to 8th .....

Tom's group came up with, "Oh yea, we ran it up with a drill to get the tell tale out of the way, LOL, LOL!!! Call it a 'Schmidtty Tall Tale'!!!!! ......


def. ' Smiths Tachometer, the mechanically driven stepper tach you see in the movie 'Grand Prix' our famous drivers in the background in the movie, has a second red needle that sits at the highest RPM reached (tell tale), used in many british formula cars, (now Jones Tach I believe) duh.smith n Jones another hoot
.
how many drivers can u name in the movie, looking 'dapper' for sure ..... some stars are too casual these days when in limelight

Rhindt perhaps ... Jochen Rhindt sp?? G Hill for sure, many very European n maybe some S Americans left to name, P Hill from Calif USA???

Dunno, but we sure made the Smiths Tach famous, LOL of course already famous to us .....

Curtis Farley was actually renting the Pomeroy Argo from Tom.

It was air cooled in 78, 79, and 80. Tom ran it in water-cooled trim in 1981.

The F2000 cars were in the US classed in formula Continental with the Super vees and what few Formula C (think Mike's Modus) as early as 1985. Steve Ice won the Cen Div National championship in a 1985 Tiga F2000 car.

IN 1988, SCCA moved the water cooled SV cars to FA with more open intake and eventually allowed them to run 1800cc motors in FA. Think the Griffith that Denny Sideri runs at PIR and MO.

So F 2000 cars were recognized to run in Formula Continental at least as early as 1985. Maybe 1984, but can not recall any factual evidence of that. Might have to dig out REALLY old results sheets to verify.

2015 would be at least 30 years in SCCA club racing.

Thanks guys- now I feel compelled to convert my Crossle 31F back to it's original configuration. She is chassis #5 from 1975. After it came to the states the earliest I could find a result for a 31F was in 1977 being run as a FB by Ken Keifer. I guess that kind of makes this car unique - over the past 40 years it has run as an FB, FC & FF

Unique car for a unique driver !
Rob St Clair would be proud.......

Hey Steve, I have a photo of the start and I am pole with my BDJ powered Modus and Farley outside front row and you can see the intakes out the right side of the engine cover so at least at Rd Atlanta for the runoffs he was in a water cooled Rabbit powered car.
And I forgot about Pomeroy winning in '78 and getting booted then coming back in '79 and winning again with a legal motor. Interesting guy, preceded JD King as a one armed formula car driver who you would never guess as he raced HARD, like JD ! Similar, Tom had one hand and used a socket of some sort to steer, like Jim Hurtubise at Indy, or Mel Kenyon at Indy and midgets, JD has but one arm and got a worthy dispensation for an air powered shifter and does it all ONE HANDED. Amazing guy, one of my heros for sure. Amazing what a person will do to race and overcome whatever obstacles get thrown in the way of competing in race cars......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Rand

I love having a chance to paw through the plié of research pubs and books in my office and come up with old and forgotten factoids of our collective past.

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You plié in your office? With those knees??!! :D:p;)

Ironic typo.

Thanks for the history lessons.

Mike,
I was there crewing for Greg Clingman in 1980 who finished third in an air cooled Lola.

Phil rosette finished second in another air cooled Lola.


There was a comment in Sorts Car that Farley lead an Air Cooled 1,2,3 at the Runoffs. I know that Tom put the air cooled motor back in his car for Curtis to rent because I helped him. And Curtis commented to me during the race week that he was thinking of changing motors but he really didn't to do a motor change on Toms car by himself. tom only had the one water cooled motor at the time.

He only ran one race water cooled in 1980, the pro race at MO after a 3 week 24/7 thrash to convert it from air to water with help from a guy who raced Triumph prod cars named Dan Pohlabel, who won the Mark Donohue award in 1976 or 1977.

FAV started out as TY 3, with the porsche gearbox and drum brakes in the back. The 3's only lasted for a couple of years, just long enough to give us another SCCA rule that was an abortion - the need to run a 1600 TY 4 (which had to be bought as kits, since they were never produced for a road car)

Steve, we are both seemingly recalling two different years at Rd At. In 1976 I was 4th in FC in a Brabham BT40 FB car I stuck a BDJ in to run as FC. Peter Gates was 3rd in another converted BT40, the Ken Duclos car that now lives in my garage back in FB/Atlantic trim with a BD.
Then in 1977 I was second to Bill Anspach just in front of the late Jim Trueman, all three of us in BDJ powered F3 chassis, Chevron-Modus-March respectively.
In 1978 I qualified but had sold the Modus and was unable to arrange a rental, 1979 was not on as I was in the in the midst of a divorce, but per SCCA Media Guide as they produced for the Runoffs for a number of years, this one dated 2001 though the 2006 version is identical, has Pomeroy winning in an Argo JM2 in 1979 and Farley also Argo JM2, the Pomeroy car as you say, in 1980. I was fourth again in another Modus [the ex-John Fowler/Bill Rutan car John brought on the same time frame I imported my original Modus for the 1977 season, both ex-F3 chassis]. More about the 1980 FC Runoffs below....
So the Pomeroy DQ must have been in 1978 it seems ? Or was that DQ from FSV rather than FC ?No recall as I was not there. In 1978 Yoder is listed as champ in an aircooled Lola but was that through DQ of Pomeroy ? I think maybe.....
Also in 1978 Jim Trueman won FC in his March so FSV and FC were still distinct entities through 1978 before they were combined for 1979 and Pomeroys FC championship rather than FSV.
Does that make sense ?
Seems to according to this reference material......
Rich Taylors Lime Rock book has a shot of Rosette and I side by side at the bridge in 1980 when Phil was, as you said, 2nd in an aircooled Lola, and I was a pitiful 4th again having scrambled together a semi-operative BDJ from 2 partials as the pole winning motor dropped a valve a lap after setting the time ! The "spare" was a partial pile of bits that included a built up head and other internals, like pistons luckily, and by cobbling together it's head and the short block of the dropped valve motor, not a clever idea but no other option, it ran like the proverbial sack of rocks and surprisingly finished, I thought it was gonna blow any time !
And Steve gets another star as after finding the start photo from 1980 Curtis is indeed in an aircooled Argo. The memory is indeed a sometime thing....
Steve, I got a few years on you and can only claim dementia as the memory sure as hell ain't what I'd like it to be, thanks for clearing up my misthoughts !

Rick, I completely forgot FSV began with a Type 3 before changing to the really irrelevant and not used in North America Type 4, I remember those runners complaining long and loud about parts supplies even then ! Well, given the preceding paragraph I THINK I remember.......

OK, quite enough wandering down the sideroads of my very own Glory Daze !
But it was all fun then and fun in the recalling as well.

I don't really have much value to offer, but since this has been a fun thread to read, I'll contribute. I hope this isn't too much of a tangent/hijack. I'll include as much FF2000 as I can remember. :-)

I started racing in 1984 at LRP in a Zink Z14-C FSV. It was in the FC class at the time. I do remember an occasional 1100cc car and several air-cooled FSV's. Soon afterwards the Super Fords appeared. In the regional races I was doing, I think Peter Klein may have been one of the firsts (in a VD?), and maybe Frank (dang, last name just slipped my mind) in a Crossle. I do remember Lou Rettinmeir's RT-5 since I had a SuperVee (and because he was associated with PLN). I fondly remember Bob and Bill Larson racing in SuperVee's (a March & a Ralt), too.

Once FF2000 cars started getting more popular (and appeared to be growing), they moved the water-cooled Supervees up to FA and gave them the bigger engine, brakes, wheels and tires.

Mike,
Correct, Tom was DQ in 1978 from FSV. Seems a set of controversial rods had something to do with it.:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Formula C (the real FC) and FSV were combined for 1979 and Tom did win in Formula Continental.

In 1980, I seem to recall you putting the Modus on the pole in Formula Continental with what you referred to as your "dirt motor" .:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

I don't really have much value to offer, but since this has been a fun thread to read, I'll contribute. I hope this isn't too much of a tangent/hijack. I'll include as much FF2000 as I can remember. :-)

I started racing in 1984 at LRP in a Zink Z14-C FSV. It was in the FC class at the time. I do remember an occasional 1100cc car and several air-cooled FSV's. Soon afterwards the Super Fords appeared. In the regional races I was doing, I think Peter Klein may have been one of the firsts (in a VD?), and maybe Frank (dang, last name just slipped my mind) in a Crossle..

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Frank Bernstein?

Hi,
This is correct. I went to work for Tiga in November 1997 and we had that years S2000 car (there were two built) which was used as the basis of an all new car for 1978. The 1978 cars were sold to the U.S., Europe, Scandinavia as well as the UK and did very well. Lola also had cars in 1977 and onwards.

Tiga and several other British manufacturers had FF2000 in 1977 for sure, but in all reality may be for a few years before that.

Hope this helps,

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Rand

Well, if looking for FF1600 info one goes to the bible, aka Steve Nickless's Anatomy and Development of the Formula Ford Race Car.
And there on page 61 he notes that FF2000/Superford first appeared in the UK in 1975.
By the way, he further states that Sports 2000, a FF2000 with fenders but no wings by most peoples reckoning, appeared over there two years later in 1977.
I do well recall the first SCCA Sports 2000 National Championship being won in 1980 at Rd Atlanta after SCCA letting those few S2s in the country run as field fillers in BSR for a few seasons until, or if, the numbers grew.

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Peter Klein was probably the first in the NE with one of the F2000 cars- he converted a '84 VD FF to F2000 in late 1984. I rented and drove it in the Canadian Tire/Motomaster Series in Canada in 1985.

By 1987 there were a bunch of us in the NE. Frank Bernstein (Crossle), Tom Schweitz (VD), Neil Tilbor (Swift), Peter Symonds (Crossle) come to mind. I was driving a Reynard, then switched to a Swift SE3. There was still one old air-cooled super V still trying- Ed Givler.

testing I don't know if this comes through.

Attachment 49249

Interesting story in the description of this ebay item.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-Lola-T3..._Street_Legal_

More of a "SuperFord" than F2000 but neat car!

Yes count me in as long as it does not have a conflict with the Hawa at RA.
I have been trying to get more Pinto powered cars to run Vintage like the S2000 guys do. They have a lot of cars racing vintage.
Nelson Nellie Lampert
VD RF88

Hey, Nelson

How are you? Hope the VD is working well for you. Looked like you did pretty well at That Looong Race. An anniversary race would be fun, wouldn't it. Hope we get to race together sometime.

Good Luck
Mike and Christian Ross