Possible new guy - Need advice!

First off I have been lurking the forums here for a few weeks and just recently decided to setup an account. I have read many threads on the forums here but still seem to be a bit confused on what direction I should be going in to.

I am looking into buying some type of open wheel Formula car. From what I can tell F600, F1000 and FM seem to be what are sticking out to me. I like the looks of the winged cars, however this isn't obviously the point of buying a car.

Any help and advice would be great. Below I'll list a few key points about my specific situation and hopefully this helps.

1- I'm looking into a formula car as a hobby/recreational sport with the possibility of getting better and racing competitively over time.

2- I currently race a 2008 Dodge Viper privately here in Michigan at Gingerman and Grattan but also ran MIS for some private events.

3- I've owned several Vipers (including an ACR), Corvettes and a Lotus Elise and can run low 1:40's at Gingerman and low 1:30's at Grattan stock in the Viper's.

4- Cost of car and operating is always an issue (i'm not made of money and I will be racing on my own dime) however I have a fair budget and can squeeze in other places if needed.

5- I'd like to purchase a car in the $10,000-$40,0000 range but honestly am not sure what car is best for me.

6- I'd prefer a car I can race often when I'm to that level. For example I don't want some odd ball car I can only race in California or something (pardon my ignorance!).

7- I do all the maintenance on my car's myself and always have. I have a large garage and all the tools I can imagine I would ever need.

8- I have truck they'll tow, and even an enclosed trailer but not opposed to buying a car/trailer combo.

9- I have experience with GSXR 600 bikes and R1 bikes as I have owned a few in the past.

10- I don't want to buy I car I can't handle, but then again I don't want some car that's so below my skill level that I would in turn have to sell and upgrade.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm open and don't expect someone to do the work for me, however I have spent hours upon hours just reading random threads (because the are just damn interesting) that have nothing to do with my situation.

Thanks again and I look forward to reply's!

-Tim

I have a Formula FCF for sale which is a very competitive class of car, very cheap to run and has unbelievable performance along with aero......it will take a long time before you are pushing a car like this to the limits of its potential.

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Originally Posted by cunn5

I have a Formula FCF for sale which is a very competitive class of car, very cheap to run and has unbelievable performance along with aero......it will take a long time before you are pushing a car like this to the limits of its potential.

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Yeah, I know you do! Your car is one in particular I was looking at. I noticed your in Florida, however that's not exactly the end of the world for me. With winter coming I don't think that would be a bad place to visit this time of year.

Would you mind shooting me your number? I'd like to give you a shout and talk more about the car. I was hoping to educate myself on class/car specifics prior to talking to anyone about a serious purchase.

Thanks,

-Tim

nine9side@yahoo.com

Give FC and CFC a good look. For winged single seaters it is the best filled class in the area. We've got a regional group that gets together to organize big gatherings known as the GLC. The last event will be at Waterford Hills at the end of the month. Stop out and check it out and talk to some of the drivers. If you're looking for a fun group, with lots of competition, and not too long of a tow from home than FC/CFC could be the way to go. Its never fun racing by yourself.

how big are you?

With single seaters, fit is a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Timnineside

10- I don't want to buy I car I can't handle, but then again I don't want some car that's so below my skill level that I would in turn have to sell and upgrade.

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I'd avoid thinking that classes with high power, big wings and fat tires is where all the skill resides. There are guys running FA you'd probably beat in the first few weekends. There are guys in FV you may not beat in your entire career.

Racing is about putting together a car that is a superior compromise against the rules then driving it better than the rest of the pack. You can do that going 110 on the long straight or 160.

When thinking about classes think about what it will cost to operate the car (tire budget is a big factor). Also think about what it will cost to nuke the motor (it will happen of course). Don't forget to think about what it will cost to crash the car (wings, suspension bits, uprights, wheels, etc.). Nobody likes to think about the last one but I'd never want to race a car that would drain my season budget in a simple shunt.

Good luck with your class search!

Doug FST 5

Drive to Watkins Glen on October 11th and hang around in the paddock.
You'll come away with a ton of knowledge.
...and probably a life long addiction.

As Bill Wise said, if you are interested in FC or CFC the come out to Waterford Hills Road Race Track on Sept 27th, 28th and talk to those in the group from the GLC series with your questions.
I will also be there supporting WHRRI and the GLC.
See me at the trailer between Tech and Hoosier Tire.

Stop by Waterford Hills Raceway September 27-28. The GLC SERIES will be running CFC - FC cars. Lots of variety. I'm planning the 14 hour tow to be there. My old Reynard is certainly 'entry level' for the pocketbook. You'll see many very nice & well sorted cars, as well.

Having completed my first real race weekend on Labor Day, I can assure you that 'addicting' is an understatement. Welcome to open wheel !

I am located in Indy and I have a new F1st going together at this time. We would like you to come down and see a car and kick the tires. A visual might help you make up
your mind and as far as dollars per fun you can't beat the new F1st class.

Steve Dunlap
Wasp Race Cars

Follow the advise of Purple Frog and kea. Visit both Waterford Hills and Watkins Glen. You will get a very good perspective of formula car racing as it is.

Don't even consider starting in a FB/F1000. That would be like learning to fly in an advanced fighter trainer from the start. It ain't going to go well.

The best starting point is no wings, in a FF or FV. My opinion only.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Follow the advise of Purple Frog and kea. Visit both Waterford Hills and Watkins Glen. You will get a very good perspective of formula car racing as it is.

Don't even consider starting in a FB/F1000. That would be like learning to fly in an advanced fighter trainer from the start. It ain't going to go well.

The best starting point is no wings, in a FF or FV. My opinion only.

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I second that -- starting in a F1600 is the way to go.
Come visit the F2000/F1600 pro race in October at the Glen good place to see real action, both in the pits and on track.

Learn to race in something that will teach you the importance of carrying momentum through the corners.....and how to do that....raather than rely on power....as usually happens in more powerful cars.

When you learn to carry the momentum, then the power can be used properly. FF and FV are excellant classes to do that.

In Addition, you will need to learn how to tune the chassis.....and doing it without wings should be the first stage in that process.

Once those two things are accomplished, you are ready to move into a winged car.

Jerry

Traveling is the biggest expense asides from tires. Pick whatever formula class has a big turn out at your two local tracks and go with it. Outside of that I'd be going with FF or FC.

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

how big are you?

With single seaters, fit is a big deal.

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I'm 5'8'' about 190lbs. I currently have a torn ACL that's getting fixed in November so after recovery I should be down to 170ish again and ready to drive hard late winter/spring.

Thanks for all the advice! I am going to try and get to some of these events. Currently my business keeps my here for weekends, but I'm changing things this winter to free up my weekends next year. I have never been to Waterford and I'm eager to check it out and meet some people.

I'm going to do a bit more research on these classes and see which is best and I will definitely keep posted! Thanks a ton for the help again.

-Tim

Steve Lathrop's advice is the same as I got from Carroll Smith. Basically, he said that if I wanted to learn to drive, get an FF. If I want to buy wings, go ahead and get the zoomy FC! That DB3 FC was certainly sexy but I'm glad I got the DB1 instead.

After many years of FF experience, I got a DB4 FA and it was WAAAAAAY beyond what I was capable of. Although I had some FF track records and Regional championships, driving with real downforce is another step beyond. Going from 1.6g to 2.5+g is a big step!

Also a quick update with my "plans" once I decided to move forward with purchasing a car. Once I get the car and become familiar working on it/driving it a bit I plan to do a full year of private track rentals with the group I currently run with. This will give me about 10 track day's in the car all by myself (8hr days) in the first season to become familiar with the car, maintence, upkeep and other surprises. I hope in this time to become familiar with the tunning and suspension among other things.

-Tim

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Originally Posted by Timnineside

Also a quick update with my "plans" once I decided to move forward with purchasing a car. Once I get the car and become familiar working on it/driving it a bit I plan to do a full year of private track rentals with the group I currently run with. This will give me about 10 track day's in the car all by myself (8hr days) in the first season to become familiar with the car, maintence, upkeep and other surprises. I hope in this time to become familiar with the tunning and suspension among other things.

-Tim

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Seriously consider adding some SCCA drivers schools in that mix.

Among other things, you need to learn how to run safely with wheels all around you. Something like formation flying.

The SCCA schools have a primary task of making sure you are safe on the track with a bunch of cars, most of whom will want to pass you. Managing yourself in a crowd of cars needs to be an integral part of your learning. Track days will not do this.

Part of being safe is lapping at speeds that are close to what other people do in cars like yours.

I would recommend starting with a FV or FST since they'll teach you the need to carry
momentum as others have stated. If you wreck or blow the motor, these cars allow
you to make repairs without ruining the annual budget. I've raced with newbies driving
CF's and FF's, and they seem to be too inexperienced with the speed required and tend to get in everyone's way, and when FV's are passing them, something is wrong.
It's better to learn to walk before running and then move up after a couple of season's. :D

Mark

88' Citation 002'

You are already used to horsepower in a large way.
Like me you may not appreciate a race car with less punch than your street car. Just saying...
One of the great track day cars is a standard Formula Mazda. They can be had for ~$20,000 with engines that last for years without a refresh if you don't overheat it. Rock solid, heavy duty, and safe. Fairly easy to maintain. Not a high strung thoroughbred that requires a lot of fussiness. You'll easily fit. It is a real kick in the ass when you get on the joy pedal. Lots of easy parts availability.
It is still a national/majors class that you could take all the way to the Runoffs if you get that desire. Great club drivers like the Roberts brothers and Franklin Futrell have come up through the FM ranks.
There are some for sale on Apexspeed.
Resale value holds level at this point, because country club drivers are buying them up.

Obtw, I jumped right into a winged car, glad I did. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Seriously consider adding some SCCA drivers schools in that mix.

Among other things, you need to learn how to run safely with wheels all around you. Something like formation flying.

The SCCA schools have a primary task of making sure you are safe on the track with a bunch of cars, most of whom will want to pass you. Managing yourself in a crowd of cars needs to be an integral part of your learning. Track days will not do this.

Part of being safe is lapping at speeds that are close to what other people do in cars like yours.

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Great point and that was something I planned to add to my list as much as possible next year too.

What is the difference in FCF to FM would be my next question? I have looked at the FM car's as well and seem to be well within my budget and something I am interested. Could I compete here in the midwest with a FM?

-Tim

FM is a class in both regional and national SCCA Club racing.
CFC is a class in some regions around the country in SCCA Regional racing. CFCs can also be entered in SCCA Nationals/Majors as FC cars. CFC just means they are older models of FC cars (coolest class in all of racing imho).

See pictures below (mouse over to read class of each car):

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Originally Posted by Timnineside

Great point and that was something I planned to add to my list as much as possible next year too.

What is the difference in FCF to FM would be my next question? I have looked at the FM car's as well and seem to be well within my budget and something I am interested. Could I compete here in the midwest with a FM?

-Tim

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Purple Frog has posted an explanation of these classes.

As a general rule, I don't recommend starting in a car with wings. I think the best place to start is FV just because it does not have wings and relatively speaking, no horse power.

Leaning to drive a low powered car teaches you to conserve momentum, roll through corners at the highest possible speed, and to not over drive your car. You also learn what close racing can be. Because the car is not all that fast, you don't travel very far when you make a mistake.

FVs are relatively easy to drive so the standard of driving is very high. To win in FV you have to drive very well. And, if you can drive a FV well, you can expect to driver other cars with the same degree of perfection. Learning to handle horse power and wings is much easier if you have a really good bacis skill set.

FF is the next best but even here you will not perfect some important skills.

The final thing you need to choose is whether you want a "development car" or a "spec car" car. Spec cars are SRF, FM, FE among others. Development cars would be F500, F600, FV, FF, FC, F1000 and FA. In general I would say that the spec car is a better fit for the casual racer or the person who is not confidnet in his mechanical skills. Setup options are limited but this makes the learning process much easier. As important as what you race is how good the competition is where you race. The tougher the competition, the tougher you will become. The cost of getting into a spec class is generally higher initially but over time should be less than a "development car". You can generally buy an entry level "development car" for any class at much lower costs than competitive cars in that class and at a much lower cost than the spec cars with similar performance.

The facts of development cars are that most of the cars running at the front of the classes are any where from 2 to 15 years old. The potential for someone to build a world beater and force everyone to buy new cars in a particular class is a myth. The classes are so well developed and so competitive that it takes a year or more to develop a new car and even then you might not have any advantage over what is currently winning. Some of the front running FF and FC are 10 to 30 years old and are still running at the front.

FM is the way to go.

I don't think these cars are that different than what you're currently used to. In terms of performance, they are better, but the learning curve isn't that much.

Also, FM has less complicated (basically worse) aero than the other winged cars so it'll make it a much easier transition into wings if you ever want to try something else in the future.

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Originally Posted by Timnineside

Great point and that was something I planned to add to my list as much as possible next year too.

What is the difference in FCF to FM would be my next question? I have looked at the FM car's as well and seem to be well within my budget and something I am interested. Could I compete here in the midwest with a FM?

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You might also want to look at FE. Given your location (Northern), you're in an area where there is pretty solid FE race participation and very good trackside support from the CSRs. It's a spec car (same as FM), so the "fool-with factor" is limited, and tires are a limited expense item. The car is a kick to drive and relatively forgiving, too.

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Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney

You might also want to look at FE. Given your location (Northern), you're in an area where there is pretty solid FE race participation and very good trackside support from the CSRs. It's a spec car (same as FM), so the "fool-with factor" is limited, and tires are a limited expense item. The car is a kick to drive and relatively forgiving, too.

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Pardon the ignorance but what is the CSR?

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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Pardon the ignorance but what is the CSR?

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Customer Service Rep.

Each division has a CSR who will generally be at the track for all the Majors (and sometimes other events). This is tremendously valuable - imagine having a dedicated parts shop and tech support service for your specific car at the track, and you get the idea.

Most of the CSRs also have cars available for arrive'n'drive rentals - that's how I got hooked.

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Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney

Customer Service Rep.

Most of the CSRs also have cars available for arrive'n'drive rentals - that's how I got hooked.

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I'd want to rent a C-Sports Racer..;)

speaking as someone who recently asked these same questions.... i went with formula Ford. for a few reasons

no wings - plenty to learn and get better at without monkeying around with Aero downforce, also - they can get expensive with off track excursions or close calls.

cost - i wouldn't say its cheap.... but its not out of control, and at least while there are costs - that are reasonable.

options - both vintage, club and scca. all have FF run groups. and i knew i didn't have "BDA" rebuild money.

not a production car - while i love MGB's, 510's alfa spiders etc... i really wanted to make an jump into open wheel single seater, i wanted to "increase" my skill base, being "old school" at heart - that meant a hew land (no paddles or sequential please! - no bike powered car) again - back to FF.

region - i wanted to be able to race, in my region (within a 5 hour drive) i can race far more than i can afford too. also knowing virtually nothing about open wheel single seater or how to spell formula ford.... i needed a local and accessible shop and prep. and i have that here in san diego.

goal - basically i set a goal, along the lines of "in 5 years i want to be able to race a historic formula B twin cam car competitively" - for me, it is not as much about achieving that goal - as walking the path to it.... so i visualized where i wanted to be, and picked a path that got me there.

i think i made 100% the right decision. the cars are robust. unless you put it in a wall your not spending a lot of money on repairs. in my region, the top 4 guys = well over 100 years of very compeitive racing experience. you can't "buy" that. so i feel privileged to be on track and mentored inside the group i run with ("the Series" formula ford). i prefer to be thrown into the wolves, trail by fire, sink or swim... in a friendly and supportive way. which is why i decided on vintage/historic - and not SCCA (along with i felt i didn't have the budget to get into a modern honda car) you can get a competitive vintage car for 15-25k. your going to double that in a modern honda powered car and your running cost will not be less.

hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by fitfan

region - i wanted to be able to race, in my region (within a 5 hour drive).....

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If you ever have a chance, move to the Seattle area. We have SIX tracks within far less then a 5 hour drive and another on the drawing boards. A most excellent historics racing club (SOVREN) and SCCA plus ICSCC. ICSCC will provide you with FOURTEEN races a season and wonderful people to race with.

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Originally Posted by rickb99

If you ever have a chance, move to the Seattle area. We have SIX tracks within far less then a 5 hour drive and another on the drawing boards. A most excellent historics racing club (SOVREN) and SCCA plus ICSCC. ICSCC will provide you with FOURTEEN races a season and wonderful people to race with.

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It's easily as strong in the areas he's in now, if not a lot stronger. The midwest has Road America, Mid-Ohio, Nelson Ledges, Michigan Int'l Speedway, Waterford Hills, Milwaukee Mile, Grattan, Blackhawk Farms, GingerMan, BeaverRun, Autobahn, etc. - and Watkins Glen, Gateway, and Summit Point aren't that much further away from where he's located. While SCCA is very strong in this area, there are a BUNCH of other small clubs as well.

I'm not knocking the PacNW racing scene - it's a great bunch of people - but the midwest is absolutely packed full of road racing tracks and organizations.

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Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney

Customer Service Rep.

Each division has a CSR who will generally be at the track for all the Majors (and sometimes other events). This is tremendously valuable - imagine having a dedicated parts shop and tech support service for your specific car at the track, and you get the idea.

Most of the CSRs also have cars available for arrive'n'drive rentals - that's how I got hooked.

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Thanks for the info. Who do they represent, the car manufacturers? Are the parts pricing reasonable?

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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Thanks for the info. Who do they represent, the car manufacturers?

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Yes - the CSRs are representatives for SCCA Enterprises, which builds and supports the Spec Racer and FE.

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Are the parts pricing reasonable?

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This is racing. How do you define "reasonable"? :D

In comparison to other similar classes, yes, the pricing is on par. The real key is that you're not having to buy the "part of the week" to keep up with the fast money. One set of gears, one set of springs/shocks, one wing configuration, spec tires, etc., so the parts cost is pretty reasonable as long as you keep the car on the pavement and away from the other guys on track. FE runs the same basic configuration at Daytona as at Blackhawk Farms - it's all one package, so you don't have to have separate setups for each track. Engines are dyno-matched and sealed, and run for years before needing any attention (assuming you don't do anything stupid); shocks are also matched and sealed.

If you want to drive, race, and set up a car, spec classes like FE are a good fit. If you want to do a lot of experimental engineering with aero, engine management, suspension design, etc., it's not for you.

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Originally Posted by rickb99

If you ever have a chance, move to the Seattle area. We have SIX tracks within far less then a 5 hour drive and another on the drawing boards. A most excellent historics racing club (SOVREN) and SCCA plus ICSCC. ICSCC will provide you with FOURTEEN races a season and wonderful people to race with.

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not to rat hole the OP's thread... but maybe little :)

i love the pacific north west! and you guys have an active vintage FB group. so lots of things to like about it up there. one day i will move out of the communist nazi state i relocated to 7 years ago.... north is an option. Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney

It's easily as strong in the areas he's in now, if not a lot stronger. The midwest has Road America, Mid-Ohio, Nelson Ledges, Michigan Int'l Speedway, Waterford Hills, Milwaukee Mile, Grattan, Blackhawk Farms, GingerMan, BeaverRun, Autobahn, etc. - and Watkins Glen, Gateway, and Summit Point aren't that much further away from where he's located. While SCCA is very strong in this area, there are a BUNCH of other small clubs as well.

I'm not knocking the PacNW racing scene - it's a great bunch of people - but the midwest is absolutely packed full of road racing tracks and organizations.

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i lived in VA, got started with track days in the lotus at VIR, i love VIR... i want to run formal ford there :) summit, road atlanta, etc.. all good venues. but i can't comment on what the "scene" is like for one class vs another.

for example - here in social vintage FB is dead (makes me sad)... nothing. FA is good, ford is good - don't see many mazda's .... FC/FB is strong in SCCA. but f500/600 is dead. (at least what i have seen). so, my only point is for the OP to investigate what classes have full grids (good support network, knowledge, experience and drivers) to run in - before deciding on a class for technical reasons. all are great classes - just pick the one thats a good fit for your region and your goals. - id be doomed if i had got a vintage FB here for example.

I had exactly the same criteria and concerns as you six years ago. I purchased an FM based on several reasons....cheap speed, safe chassis design, and economy of the run. I had owned and driven several of the cars you mentioned too. Don't be afraid of the wings, its just downforce and you've driven Vipers...I have had absolutely no regrets except that I can't race every weekend...expect an engine rebuild approximately every 60 races or so. Purple Frog gives great advice...