CM Co-drivers

Hello!

New to the forum, but not new to autox. I've been digging around for all things FF and this looks like the place to be. Thanks for letting me in the front door.

A little background:
I have a Mk1 Fiesta (since 1990, DSP/EP), so joining the CM world has been in the back of my mind since the 90's. I have been running stock class competition (FS & SS(R)) since 2003 and recently have been thinking about something totally different. Also considering trying a few hill climbs.

The now:
From the short time I've been researching chassis, it looks like there are a lot of options for being competitive (which is important). I am in the rare situation where my wife runs with me in open class (she does not believe in ladies and is good for tire warming:)). With that, we have a significant size difference. I am 6'3" about 210 lbs and she is 5'1" with what I would guess an average weight for here size (I know better than to ask).

Questions:
1. what are my options for being a little on the taller/bigger side
2. what are our options for driver change over. If its as simple as a seat insert, that is doable, but anything more than that may steer us away from buying a CM toy.

Thank you in advance for any advice/thoughts/options.

Jason

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Originally Posted by yahmule2003

Questions:
1. what are my options for being a little on the taller/bigger side
2. what are our options for driver change over. If its as simple as a seat insert, that is doable, but anything more than that may steer us away from buying a CM toy.

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1. There are numerous FF chassis that would work. The '82-'92 Reynards come to mind (three differ chassis in that range '82-'84, '85-86, and '87-'92). A S2000 is also an option (although higher in price).

2 - Whatever the choice, you'll want a custom fitted seat (easy enough to make with 2-part expanding foam); one for you and an insert or entire seat for your wife.

Like has been noted before, you really need to "try on" a few chassis to see what works. Attend a FRCCA or SCCA event in your area and talk to some FF/S2 owners; most will you "test fit" their car once they know you're looking to join the class.

Take care,

Whether a seat insert is enough for seating positions will be relatively easy to determine prior to purchase. Make sure that feet reach pedals and driving shoes aren't too big or interfere with frame tubes. Ditto with shoulder clearance and helmet passing the "broom stick test".

The weight difference may be the biggest challenge unless you are willing to run above min weight. Check with current CM male/female teams like the Laveders. Both are relatively lightweight but the delta may be similar. When my wife co-drove ours we had about 15 lbs of sheet lead she sat on. I ran with the car heavier than minimum.

You probably will need easily adjustable lap belts since many are not (so they don't loosen during a race). Pull up or down depending on the car and preference.

Good advice from Dick R.! Eric Clements (emcmr2) has figured out a way to adjust pedals to make the car work for him, his college student son, and his wife, so he may be able to give you some ideas. One note, passing the "broom stick test" is a good idea, but not required for Solo, you only have to be below the roll hoop with your helmet on.

My '88 Reynard had room for big guys and my '95 Van Diemen has a fair amount of room also. Both my co-drivers are around your size....

When you try on cars, keep in mind that they will probably feel cramped at first. You'll get used to that, just make sure you can operate the controls freely. Also, there's often adjustment in the controls, you can move the steering wheel forward and back, the shifter can usually be moved, pedals adjust, etc.

Barry Ott
'95 VD, Honda 196 CM

Thanks for the great feedback!

I'm guessing if we decide to do hillclimbs, the broomstick check needs to happen? If a particular car does not pass the broomstick, I'm also guessing that it is a major deal to adjust the roll hoop? I would also imagine all the safety equipment needs to be up to date as well.

I was talking to Mark Daddio the other day and he said he got pretty beat up when he drove one in the early 2000's (and he ran without a seat insert). It sounds like there is time required to "fit" yourself to the car and figure out what needs padded or some other means of protection?

Pru, regarding the three Reynards, what are the differences in the generations? Should I be looking at one over another?
What makes the S2000 more expensive?
I know these might be a complicated questions, but just trying to learn as much as I can right now. If there is a place where I can get caught up on the difference chassis, please point me in the right direction.

Regards,
Jason

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Originally Posted by yahmule2003

Pru, regarding the three Reynards, what are the differences in the generations? Should I be looking at one over another?
What makes the S2000 more expensive?

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In terms of fit, all three have decent sized cockpits. Rough detail differences :

'82-'84 : First Reynard with inboard shocks/springs (rockers). Very easy to Solo once set up. Elzinga won Nationals with an '84.

'85-86 : Swift DB1 "copy" featuring pushrod suspension. Unloved by most Club Racers but can be made fast with right set up. Daddio won Nationals with an '85.

'87-'92 : Evolution of '82-'84 using some parts of the '85-'86 (uprights?). Rockers. Godula, Aust, and Ott won Nationals in '88 chassis.

That is, all can win. Just find the one that fits you and your budget.

As for the S2, smaller numbers produced, higher initial price, and vintage market demand are behind higher prices.

Lots of nice advantages to having an open wheel car for autocross, very easy access. S2000 not so good. Find a race day for FF at whatever is your local track to see many different cars. We make my car work between 6-2 and 5-8 people with a 3 in insert pad in the back of the seat.
Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yahmule2003

I was talking to Mark Daddio the other day and he said he got pretty beat up when he drove one in the early 2000's (and he ran without a seat insert). It sounds like there is time required to "fit" yourself to the car and figure out what needs padded or some other means of protection?

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Depending on what hard parts are close, many drivers wear elbow pads, knee pads, and/or soccer shin guards (you'll even see them on F1 drivers when they get out of the cars at the end of a race). You're going to experience g-forces unlike anything you've had in a sedan, so even though the belts keep your body from rattling around your arms and legs will.

Alternately padding such as rollbar or pipe insulation (if not GCR required padding) might be more convenient. I never use padding on me . . . just on the car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yahmule2003

It sounds like there is time required to "fit" yourself to the car and figure out what needs padded or some other means of protection?

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That's exactly right. When Barry and I were figuring out seat inserts and padding in his 95 VD the process went like this:

1) Drive car
2) Examine what hurt the next day
3) Modify seating/padding to prevent body movement or make pad to cushion injury
4) Go to step 1

It only took a couple of events to resolve any acute issues and then the comfort level and confidence went way up.

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Ott

Good advice from Dick R.! Eric Clements (emcmr2) has figured out a way to adjust pedals to make the car work for him, his college student son, and his wife, so he may be able to give you some ideas.

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Jon is 6'-2", Mari is 5'-2". We now have our '94 Van Diemen set up so we can all drive it. Mari has a two part foam insert that contains 2 brake rotors worth of ballast. We moved the pedals back as far as Jon could still work them then added adjustable extensions for Mari.

You're welcome to bring Heather by and check it out. White dually, white 36' gooseneck, in chiefs row, silver car with huge American flag graphics.

The first day in mine was a test day. I was having so much fun I didn't notice the goose egg on my elbow and knee until someone pointed it out. I headed to the local sporting good store that night for elbow pads since it was the fastest solution. I figure it is easier for me to cover my bones that hit hard stuff than covering up all the hard stuff.

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Originally Posted by TedV

The first day in mine was a test day. I was having so much fun I didn't notice the goose egg on my elbow and knee until someone pointed it out. I headed to the local sporting good store that night for elbow pads since it was the fastest solution. I figure it is easier for me to cover my bones that hit hard stuff than covering up all the hard stuff.

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:D

I think we all have a story or two about padding the hard parts, either us or the car. :) I think the lesson is that comfort isn't an problem, it's just part of the process. Just make sure you can operate the controls freely. David and I are both well over 6' tall and are perfectly comfortable. Honestly, I'm more comfortable in my CM car than Stock/Street Miata's, I'm always sore from the lap belt in a Miata.

Barry

Thanks again everyone for the great feedback!

**You're welcome to bring Heather by and check it out. White dually, white 36' gooseneck, in chiefs row, silver car with huge American flag graphics.[/QUOTE]**

Unfortunately, we are missing nationals this year. Daddio was going to co-drive with us this year (again), but personal issues had him too busy. So we decided to make it a lower race year. Thanks for the offer, perhaps we can catch up at a national event next year.

We live in PA, so if anyone thinks of a person or event in the general area, please keep us in mind. We're in no rush, but if something falls in our lap, we'll certainly consider it. I also don't think I've completely sold Heather on the idea yet, she loves the Corvette and air conditioning. We're not getting rid of the Corvette, just looking for another fun competitive toy.

I am familiar with the "getting beat up" thing. Probably not to the level of you guys/gals, but I usually have to wear knee pads in most things I drive. I don't left foot brake and once the foot comes off the clutch, it's on the dead pedal and keep my butt in the seat mode. Door speakers and center consoles are not my friends :(

Good luck to all the folks running the Finale and Nationals!

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Originally Posted by ewcmr2

Jon is 6'-2", Mari is 5'-2". We now have our '94 Van Diemen set up so we can all drive it. Mari has a two part foam insert that contains 2 brake rotors worth of ballast. We moved the pedals back as far as Jon could still work them then added adjustable extensions for Mari.

You're welcome to bring Heather by and check it out. White dually, white 36' gooseneck, in chiefs row, silver car with huge American flag graphics.

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Eric,
Do you or Jon ever codrive with Mari? Just seeing if the change over can be done between runs or is it too complicated.
Thanks,
Jason

We just changed the pedal setup a couple weeks ago so we have ever driven in the same heat with Mari.
We could change the setup co-driving but it might get a little frantic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ewcmr2

We just changed the pedal setup a couple weeks ago so we have ever driven in the same heat with Mari.
We could change the setup co-driving but it might get a little frantic.

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Sounds like we are going to have some challenges. I guess we just need to find a couple to sit in. Maybe pull the nose cone and see how close were are.

Our car is currently out of the trailer, right behind the information tent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ewcmr2

Our car is currently out of the trailer, right behind the information tent.

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Thanks, but we didn't go to nationals this year.

Has anyone ever done anything with the steering shaft length? Perhaps we could have two steering wheels with different lengths shafts on them?

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Originally Posted by yahmule2003

Has anyone ever done anything with the steering shaft length? Perhaps we could have two steering wheels with different lengths shafts on them?

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Yep. Separate steering wheels with different length hubs is super easy. Most formula cars have adjustable length steering shafts but that is more work/tools to deal with during driver changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ewcmr2

Yep. Separate steering wheels with different length hubs is super easy. Most formula cars have adjustable length steering shafts but that is more work/tools to deal with during driver changes.

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Awesome, that makes me think we can make this work. Thanks for the information. If you think of any other things that might help, let me know.