Brazil F1

I don't know about everyone else, but after watching the race yesterday on tape, since I was out while the race happened, but WTF is the FIA trying to do? Penalizing Verstappan for causing a collision? He was clearly along side Hamilton and Hamilton did his classic I am ahead so you have to get out of my way. Really? We all know that from years of SCCA road racing that it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to complete a safe pass.

To me that means you have to give the other driver room to STAY on the track! Wheel to wheel racing can be very satisfying but it greatly relies on mutual trust between the drivers. Once the front of the overtaking drivers car is mid way along the side of the car they are passing then the other car has no right to run the passing car off the road.

This BS that is making it's way into pro racing is going to turn it into a crash fest and he said she said BS! Then this now adopted rule of allowing lapped cars to unlap them selves in a full course yellow is Nastycar BS. The whole thing stinks of circle track rules to make racing more interesting.

At the local indoor go cart track that I have patronized since the day they opened (Autobahn in HBG PA), I have done a few league races and they instituted a BS rule that if the over taking cart gets its front tire along side the others rear tire it is his turn and if a spin results the over taking driver is moved ahead of the car it dive bombed in the restart.

I told them that is total BS since the carts do not have mirrors and I have no way of knowing the other cart is there. If this is what road racing is headed towards then I guess I am old and willing to stop and spend my time and money else where.

OK, I will get off my soapbox now.

Ed

Ed. I totally agree with you, I'm not a fan of Verstappan, but that was a very poor call. Martin Brundle certainly thought so too. Very poor examples are being set for the young drivers coming into the sport.

After the race, Lewis said “I think it's natural when you have the success and the numbers on your chest, that you become a bit of a target." The guy is completely delusional but the Brit fans will eat it up. Perhaps if Lewis gave a car width plus 3", instead of a car width minus 3", he would not be the "target".

FIA and F1 have layers and layers of stupid rules, but they don't, for example, have a rule to penalize those causing a red flag in qualifying. Russell's weekend should have been derailed after qualifying. I found that the BS detracted from what could have been very entertaining racing.

I think it is interesting how people cannot remember all the times that Verstapen divebombed people into corners and then ran them off the road. I think Indycar has the best standards for driver conduct.

Pretty sure FIA screwed up that penalty, sure looked like Hamilton's fault to me. But I don't have all the data they have to assess.

On a separate note, I am quickly losing any respect for Leclerc, who behaved in a Hamilton-like way by asking the team to make his teammate give up a position (a podium no less!) to "help" himself in the points.

I thought to be a true sportsman you should want to earn all of your points.

The penalty was certainly BS.

But what we don't have is what the stewards have. Data.

IIR V only complained about the 10 sec penalty - rightly so - but not much else.
I think he commented once about being turned into once.

Did you hear the team orders for V to give Perez the place back on the last lap if he didn't pass Alonso?
Hmm. That didn't happen.....

I agree about the causing of red flags in Q. Even yellows have influenced outcomes before.
That's one benefit of the spring race setting the grid for the GP.

Overall I thought the racing in both the sprint and GP was good.

Interesting reads:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...n-gp/10399770/

https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/3...ed-bull-brazil

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Interesting reads:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...n-gp/10399770/

https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/3...ed-bull-brazil

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A little interesting that the Monaco think has only been reported by the Dutch media and has no corroboration my any other journalist. You'd think if there was evidence that supported a purposeful crash that the FIA would have reviewed and penalized. It wouldn't be the first time a driver induced incident at Monaco caused a red flag in Q3.

Also, this was all for P6, after the WDC was decided. Burning bridges (with the team mate that has helped you to both those titles) for an inconsequential P6!? Foolish.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

The penalty was certainly BS.

But what we don't have is what the stewards have. Data.

IIR V only complained about the 10 sec penalty - rightly so - but not much else.
I think he commented once about being turned into once.

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1) A little more to the passing rule than just being along side. You have to be in complete control when you get there. MV was ruled not in control but also deemed not completely to blame for the collision. That is why only a 5 sec penalty.

2) No reason to complain about anything if you are going to have to take on a new nose. With the way their car was performing, the penalty was not going to pay a role in winning the race. He knew the risks that were require if he was going to get anywhere last weekend.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

1) A little more to the passing rule than just being along side. You have to be in complete control when you get there. MV was ruled not in control but also deemed not completely to blame for the collision. That is why only a 5 sec penalty.

2) No reason to complain about anything if you are going to have to take on a new nose. With the way their car was performing, the penalty was not going to pay a role in winning the race. He knew the risks that were require if he was going to get anywhere last weekend.

Brian

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And there's this.....

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"To be honest I went around the outside and immediately felt he wasn't going to leave space, so I just went for it," Verstappen told Sky Sports.

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Brazil is a classic reason why all I watch are the race highlights - to watch a complete race is boring & frustrating. Max may have pulled a pass like that early in his career, but I feel he's matured. In my view he started too young & inexperienced - but has earned his place at the top... never been a Red Bull fan, but they have earned my respect.

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Originally Posted by 2BWise

And there's this.....

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Once again, Verstappen bulldozed himself into a space-demanding position to get taken out with, and got his wish.

Racing against this guy week in and week out will bring the worst out of anybody... even the best there is.

I agree with Ed 110%!!!!

I have been looking for an overhead view. It looked like Max had the pass done, but then Lewis was ahead.(?) I need an overhead view as to how he did that. Was Max slow because he understeered wide? I think the TV shots, even the in car were not helpful. Waiting for one of the F1 reviewers to do an in-depth study. (and please - would Max have left room....)

BTW - How can I instruct at a SCCA school anymore? Kevin - when you spin, both feet in - do you think this is NASCAR? :D

ChrisZ

For decades we have accused F1 of having parades and calling them races.

The Stewards decisions this year in multiple incident are casting in penalties assessed that there cannot be contests for position in turns. The Stewards are against racing as we have known it.

It appears that the FIA has changed the rules for 2022:

https://youtu.be/R5lVl1OaqSk

After reviewing what we have, Max gets ahead but understeers wide (with a twitch). This allows Lewis to get ahead in turn 1. So now it is a race for turn 2.

since there was no DRS at this point, I am guessing Max thought this was his only chance. I wonder if he would have done it if the championship was still in play. He drove very smart this year, up to this point……

Now, to start another conspiracy, maybe Lewis was trying to protect George’s win. In this case Toto owes him a “Thank you Michael”


ChrisZ

This is the first (and only) example of a WDC Champion who is totally without honor. After Perez (it could be said) was directly responsible for Verstappen's championship, then Max refuses to follow team orders and let Perez have 2 more points. No skin off Max's nose, nothing to lose, everything to gain from a team standpoint, yet he is petty enough to think he is above this.

Nikki talked about the Lauda System. The first rule of the System was "Lauda Comes First." And yet, upfront as he was about such things he could still be a team player.

Absolutely, classless jerk.

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

This is the first (and only) example of a WDC Champion who is totally without honor. After Perez (it could be said) was directly responsible for Verstappen's championship, then Max refuses to follow team orders and let Perez have 2 more points. No skin off Max's nose, nothing to lose, everything to gain from a team standpoint, yet he is petty enough to think he is above this.

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Absolutely, classless jerk.

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

This is the first (and only) example of a WDC Champion who is totally without honor. After Perez (it could be said) was directly responsible for Verstappen's championship, then Max refuses to follow team orders and let Perez have 2 more points. No skin off Max's nose, nothing to lose, everything to gain from a team standpoint, yet he is petty enough to think he is above this.

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Back to the "racing incident":

After watching Jolyon Palmer's replay analysis on F1 TV, it was clear that Max was climbing all over the curb as far as he could go in T2, and Lewis maintained the racing line following exactly in the path of George Russell in front of him.

The question then becomes: should Louis have deviated from the racing line to give Max racing room on the track.

If we apply our GCR Appendix P, the answer is clearly that Max was along side sufficiently to have earned racing room. Obviously, the F1stewards are using a different definition of "along side".

Personally, I feel the stewards got it wrong, and Hamilton should have received the penalty.

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Originally Posted by douglap1

If we apply our GCR Appendix P, the answer is clearly that Max was along side sufficiently to have earned racing room. Obviously, the F1stewards are using a different definition of "along side".

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IIR the stewards report actually says none of that matters. The very first requirement was that he be in full control.
They determined he wasn't. 'Along side', 'racing room' didn't matter because he wasn't in full control. His fault.

Evidence of his lack of control was that after they made contact, Verstappen continued off the far side of the track.
He basically launched his car into the turn.

Good points but remember that as they exited turn 1 they were wheel to wheel and Hamilton barley eased a head and cut into the apex forcing Verstapan onto the curb to avoid contact. Hamilton might have been close to the racing line but he also had someone along side and forced them onto the curb.

Back to the rule we use, it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to complete a SAFE pass, which is not what Hamilton did. Something I did not mention when posting this thread is this the kinda of competition we want to teach all new racers? Wining is everything and there are no repercussions for bad driving let alone bad manners?

There was a time I was a fan of Hamilton but I am a fan of racing and not necessarily of any one driver. I like to see good racing and not demolition derby driving. This is a sport and there is no right for anyone to win and if you don't move on to the next time. Don't favor one person over the other because you are a fan of one.

Ed

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Originally Posted by Ed Womer

Back to the rule we use, it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to complete a SAFE pass, which is not what Hamilton did. Something I did not mention when posting this thread is this the kinda of competition we want to teach all new racers? Wining is everything and there are no repercussions for bad driving let alone bad manners?

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ABSOLUTELY - but per the stewards it was Verstappen that did not complete the safe pass. He went into T1 too hot and out of control. He never completed a safe pass. That was their finding. Events leading to a situation matter.

Is that the type of behavior we want to teach? As long as you throw your car ahead everyone owes you room?

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Events leading to a situation matter.

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To me this is just a variation of the standard "dive bomb" that most here would say is abhorrent. Any lower speed 2 turn segment can be used as a passing tool by using the "rule" of "being alongside" at the second apex to force an advantage. Just drive the first section as though it's a single turn. Yep, you end up at the wrong angle and speed to make a proper exit, but it doesn't matter as you've blocked out your opponent from making any useful response AND the optics are in your favour. Seems very "sim racer" to me.

It's great from a spectator POV to watch, but I'm glad the stewards were looking at the "control" aspect of this as it relates to the second part of the turn complex.

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Originally Posted by pleavens

Any lower speed 2 turn segment can be used as a passing tool by using the "rule" of "being alongside" at the second apex to force an advantage. Just drive the first section as though it's a single turn. Yep, you end up at the wrong angle and speed to make a proper exit, but it doesn't matter as you've blocked out your opponent from making any useful response AND the optics are in your favour. .

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I believe this is what is called "racing".

In gentlemen racing, it is proper to show your nose up the inside in the brake area, see if the other driver gives you the corner, then take it. If he does not surrender, then you follow some more.

These are not gentlemen. They are selfish A-holes getting the job done anyway they can. We won't know if Max would have made the corner because Lewis gave him 3" less than a car width, instead of a car width plus 1 inch. They both decided to take their chances on a collision once Lewis crowded Max. I would certainly blame Lewis, but it probably is best classed as a racing incident.

Lewis just cannot handle being passed by Max (or anyone else), any more than Max can handle being behind Lewis. Regardless of who you blame (mostly dependent on your like or dislike for either), Lewis's poor decision cost him his chance at victory.

Disclaimer: I think they are both weenies so don't feel particularly biased either way.

delete - dbl post

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Originally Posted by problemchild

...Disclaimer: I think they are both weenies so don't feel particularly biased either way.

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Very talented weenies, but I agree they are weenies. Unfortunately, in any sport, the more talented are endlessly coddled, so most of them turn out that way or worse.

However, Max has been the aggressor more times than not, so unless Lewis refuses to be bullied, Max would just have his way. That leads to this sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Very talented weenies, but I agree they are weenies. Unfortunately, in any sport, the more talented are endlessly coddled, so most of them turn out that way or worse.

However, Max has been the aggressor more times than not, so unless Lewis refuses to be bullied, Max would just have his way. That leads to this sort of thing.

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I saw a post on Facebook outlining at least 8 or 9 times that Hamilton has had contact with other cars this year...

...and pointing out that Verstappen's only contact this year was at Brazil.

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Originally Posted by alangbaker

I saw a post on Facebook outlining at least 8 or 9 times that Hamilton has had contact with other cars this year...

...and pointing out that Verstappen's only contact this year was at Brazil.

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I guess that points to the level of desperation in a season where the driver is not winning as much as he thinks he should. This year it's Lewis, past years it's been Max.

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Originally Posted by alangbaker

at least 8 or 9 times that Hamilton has had contact with other cars this year...

...and pointing out that Verstappen's only contact this year was at Brazil.

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That's why I added "(or anybody else)" to my post. I don't know the exact stats but that has been the pattern. It sucks when you don't have a second per lap car advantage and have to race with people like Alonso and K-Mag on equal terms. Max and Charles seem to have found a way to co-exist with each other without contact every week.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I guess that points to the level of desperation in a season where the driver is not winning as much as he thinks he should. This year it's Lewis, past years it's been Max.

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Points to the superior car. Prior it was the Merc. Last year they were fairly even. This year the RB.
It's hard to make contact with competitors who are 20 seconds behind - in either case. :meatball:

The Merc has been interesting the last few races. Wonder what next year brings.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Very talented weenies, but I agree they are weenies. Unfortunately, in any sport, the more talented are endlessly coddled, so most of them turn out that way or worse.

However, Max has been the aggressor more times than not, so unless Lewis refuses to be bullied, Max would just have his way. That leads to this sort of thing.

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Let’s be honest, most of us grew up in an era where moves that we see today would result in injury or death. But cars are so much safer today. The only thing left to do is put fenders on them. Oh sorry, that already exists - NASCAR….:D

ChrisZ