How many Zetec driver car combinations are at the minimum weight?
How many Pinto's.
Other than those at the very pointy end I would be surprised if there were many. Just MHO. Very Humble
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How many Zetec driver car combinations are at the minimum weight?
How many Pinto's.
Other than those at the very pointy end I would be surprised if there were many. Just MHO. Very Humble
I am running 35+ lb of ballast at 1210 for the FRP F2000 series. I weigh ~155.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
It is interesting that, once again, the CRB ignores the input of the FSRAC. Why have a committee if the CRB members know better? 35 year old cars are getting beat by 10 year old cars, so lets give the 35 year old cars an artificial boost, unsupported by dyno or scientific evidence. This was the last thing this class needed right now.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
That is why they are not at the pointy end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
The FSRAC is just a buffer. The CRB members know what they're going to do, they just hope the FSRAC makes the recommendation so that the CRB can say they are listening. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Pinto here in a 94/95 VD on OZ wheels and Hoosiers. The first weekend of August Daytona SARRC weekend was cut short by oncoming Hurricane, so races were eliminated.....but I didn't know they were cutting the race length too........so I went out on a full fuel cell. Weighed 1213 at the premature end. So maybe I would have weighed 1203 +/- if I'd burned off an extra gallon and a half or so?
Don't forget this car had a taller roll bar fabricated to account for the EPP BaldSpot type of seat I sit on....so is that the 3 pounds?
I otherwise lately run the American Racer tires from the Southern F2000 Series - I hope the Series survives - car counts were going up nicely. The set of 4 ARs weigh as a total, if I'm remembering correctly, about 7 to 8 pounds more than the Hoosiers. Years ago on Hoosiers at Roebling I was legal by one pound. Figure my weight at +/- 170.
Ya, I know the problem. Taking weight out of the car is really easy, but really expensive. Taking weight out of my fat a** is really cheap, but really hard. Haven’t completely succeeded with either yet. ToddQuote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
That said I’m a FF guy (and vintage FF at that) so I understand the passion around different engines and parity and cost and ..... but you might go a little easier on people trying to improve things. They may or may not be improvements in your eyes but they are what is being done. Maybe the class or the process is broken beyond repair but in the end if you dismiss anything but your idea/proposal as junk then your fate will be sealed. In the end you present your ideas and they are either adopted or not through a process. If in the end the result is not acceptable to you, you have a choice to make- continue running with the group, quit altogether, or find another group that better fits your idea of the correct solution, which some have done. The bottom line is almost all of us as drivers do this for fun (not many of this forum are making a living by driving race cars) so if the rules of the organization are ruining your fun find something else (different class, different organization, different hobby, .....) Todd
Totally agree. And that process, etc. is why a lot of cars get parked.Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrong
Even as a Pinto driver, I've not been in favor of adding weight to Zetecs.
It really gives me NO advantage since I'm already over their weight.
No way I can get me and my car down to 1200. Unrealistic, unobtainable, unmotivating.
All it does it tell me I've got to switch engines so I can be closer to weight.
The added weight will help the bigger Zetec guys. Racing will get a little tighter.
Give me something to help propel my a$$ a little faster or help reduce the cost of freshening. That's motivating.
Uhhh......liposuction?
Catering to one portion of the class by handicapping another portion of the class, does not do anything to build the unity that will generate some growth. Competition adjustments based on data are necessary, but political based adjustments will just rearrange the car counts, not grow them.
I weigh 205 and the last time I was officially weighed I was at 1207 with about 3/4 gallon of fuel. I have spent thousands of dollars to lower my total weight from around 1240 to slightly over the minimum, and now I'll have to ballast to make the new minimum. You can definitely count me as one of the Zetec owners who is adamantly opposed to this misguided rule change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Demeter
We had about 20 lbs of ballast with a 205 lb driver, then 35 with a 185 lb driver. Now i am looking at putting in a 150 lb driver, and allowing for the new ballast rule ....... WOW ..... that is a lot of ballast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyngengr
I believe that adding ballast is more appropriate for BOF than letting some cars lighten to perhaps make weight ....... but there are limits. We may not be able to physically make it to 1250, as some regional series have set the weight limit. In any case, handicapping well built, well-developed, modern cars based on political motives, so that they are now as competitive as not-developed 25 year old cars (worth a fraction) is absurd. If a modern car needs to be handicapped to that level, it just emphasizes how far off the older car programs are.
That's deep. Could be applied to lots of scenarios outside of racing, but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Just look at the need to add 70# of ballast as an advantage over the otherwise equal weight car that got there without having the opportunity to put that weight where is was most beneficial. ;)
I think there are larger problems to worry about in racing, and certainly the world, than 20 lbs. You won't die, the class won't end overnight, and you're not out thousands of dollars.
Worst case scenario; you had to add 20 lbs to your car for nothing. Best case, some Pinto folks come out to play and help the numbers. It's worth a shot. Without doing something, FC will be gone very soon.
How about giving it a shot? Maybe, just maybe, if people stop acting like the world is coming to an end over 20lbs it might just work. Look at all the Pinto cars Averill has in the GLC series. The cars are out there....why are they not with SCCA? Underdogs?
Oddly, I don't hear any better ideas on how to bring Pinto cars out. Isn't that what is important?
Pinto powered cars in chassis older than '94 get to weigh 1150# with current engine rules or 1200# with open cam and carb.Quote:
Originally Posted by reidhazelton;610442/
Pinto powered cars '94 and later 1200# with current engine rules.
All Zetec powered cars 1220
Race entry fees 25% off for all Pinto powered FC's.
That ought to get a few old Pinto's to join the party, if it doesn't, nothing will. ;)
According to the CDC the average male is 197#. Lyn is a fit guy and even he had to spend big money to get the race weight down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyngengr
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm
Let's get realistic about who is driving these cars. Not skinny teenagers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
The thing to do is raise the weight for EVERYONE !
Old fat guys wouldn't be 50# slower. Everyone could make weight.
Adding lead is cheaper than getting lighter and making some of the older cars lighter is not a cheap prospect.
In the VD lineup a 93 isn't that much different that a 94/95 - certainly not disadvantaged enough to get an open cam/carb.
If everyone could actually make weight, then we could see what the power difference really is.
Right now we keep guessing because engines on dynos are different than cars on track.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...id=93880&stc=1Quote:
Originally Posted by reidhazelton
I guess we have a different impression of "all". Perhaps "both" or "3 or 4".
Its "just 20 lbs" can be argued both ways.
There is so much involved in driving and preparing these cars, engine dyno info is the closest thing we have to absolute fact. When you don't like the info provided as fact, and challenge it with anecdotal "impressions", that is called denial.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
Just an outsider now looking in now wondering if anyone has asked any Pinto drivers if this will bring their car out of the garage & to the track? Have any Pinto drivers said they will show up now because of this change? There has been a month now of this being implemented, how many pinto drivers have raced this August vs last August?
This Pinto driver is bringing his car out of the garage. But, my cars have really never been in the garage because I have a lack of interest in driving them. I find driving it to be FUN ! Mine set in the barn because I am working on something I broke, refurbishing it, or the biggest thing that keeps me off of the track is my job. I am in the middle of the ocean for half of my life and that makes it difficult to hook up the trailer and drive to a race track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
I didn't need a rule change to go and do something that I think is FUN ! I don't typically find any FUN setting in front of square boxes with moving digital images on them. Though, to be fair, when the most recent season of Ozark was released, I could be found repetitively with my feet propped up, a Coors in one hand, the family dog under the other hand and continually asking my wife to be quiet and turn the volume up! Because that was FUN! Oh, and to set the record straight... that is Coors in the gold can. Yes, The Banquet Beer, that is what real men drink! Not the silver can, that is reserved for tourists and people who are setting on lawn mowers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
See, I guess nothing will. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
You want a ruleset so that old fat guys can be competitive with folks who take their own physical fitness/conditioning and car prep more seriously?
I mentioned the open cam/carb thing to make it a clear incentive to get those 27+ year old cars out on the track, and you're going to complain about the average overweight male not being able to make weight.
No, my point is a guy like Lyn IS fit, he IS the average weight of an American male and he had to spend thousands on lightness to make weight. So, 200# in your opinion is "average overweight". Hmm. What should the average be in your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Then you suggest a weight (1150) that'll be even more costly to attain OR a cam carb package for a relatively low volume of cars that would be an extreme advantage. That's a disincentive to the high volume cars (94+).
So, to summarize this thread:
- We want to get more cars on grid because the class is dying.
- The older cars are sitting, a source of numbers and we want them to come out.
- We want to provide incentives. (but we don't actually want competition)
- We'll penalize the active cars, cause everyone likes to see someone else punished.
- We won't ask want would be an incentive, and we won't tell them about this, because they aren't active anyway.
- If we do receive suggestions, we can discount them as uninformed, incomplete and anecdotal unless they provide a narrow scope of data that suggests everything is okay anyway.
- If you don't like these rules, you should go somewhere else. (yeah, that's what people did, duh)
- Let's suggest spending more that the car is worth to lighten and refresh your 27+ year old car.
- If you are a 200# fatty, no need to apply because you are too out of shape for this hobby.
What incentive did I miss?
As I said before, this is a 'We tried' rule change just before the class gets the needle.
What I don't get is it appears that 1 letter created this change. What data was provided?
Not my opinion, but those of medical experts. Yes, though 200# might be the average weight of an American adult male it is overweight unless you are taller than 6'3 1/4". Even at 6'3", 200# is the very, very top of the normal/healthy range.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
I wasn't suggesting rules to achieve parity, I was suggesting rules that would incentivize older cars to come out and play.Quote:
Then you suggest a weight (1150) that'll be even more costly to attain OR a cam carb package for a relatively low volume of cars that would be an extreme advantage. That's a disincentive to the high volume cars (94+).
IF a 27+ year old car became the car to have in the class and the numbers were up, that 27+ year old car would increase in value substantially.Quote:
Let's suggest spending more that the car is worth to lighten and refresh your 27+ year old car.
You can apply, just don't bitch and moan about the results you didn't get because of the work you didn't do.Quote:
- If you are a 200# fatty, no need to apply because you are too out of shape for this hobby.
Translation: If you don't like it, take a hike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
Do we really wonder why guys went home and didn't come back?
I've never complained about weight until this. This is actually an incentive to move to a Zetec as I'd be closer to making weight.
That won't bring more cars out.
You want customers the fit into a mold that doesn't actually reflect the demographic.
You don't offer what they want or listen to their needs.
You keep narrowing your market.
You run out of customers.
Nope. Don't bitch and moan about the results you didn't get from the work you didn't do. No translation needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
No, lots of us left the sport for a myriad of reasons but they all boil down in one form or the other to "we no longer felt it was worth our time, effort, and money for what we got in return". If we felt it was worth our time, effort and money, we'd return. Simple.Quote:
Do we really wonder why guys went home and didn't come back?
You'll never make rules that allow someone 100# overweight, who drives a desk 60+ hours a week, doesn't know the last time they rode a bike, swam or jogged around the block to be competitive with a 25 year old, Ironman participant, who gets more seat-time in a month than most do in a year. Fact is, the club has both. If those former guys park because they can't compete, they'll park when the minimum weight is 1400# and they still get their ass handed to them.
Regardless, you have to adjust your product to where the money, time, and interest lies.
These cars were designed for 165 lb brits. Would be interesting to see if there were ever official records on whether or not the weight should have been adjusted initially for larger Americans when the classes came over - and we continue to get larger but we don't scale for that, only perceived performance differences.. All the kids with daddy's big checkbook are in F4 now.
People are losing sight of the amateur vs pro distinction.
We started with a "formula" and that formula is dying. Nobody can agree on the cause of the problem, let alone a solution. But if purists keep trying to stick with what worked in the past, it's just going to die faster. Look at FM and the last couple generations of FA. When I sit in a Swift DB4 my ass cheeks are on top of the tub edges. One of the guys out here said a 34 waist was about as big as you can go. I haven't worn a 34 since 1978. But smart guys figured out that when you have arrive and drive classes like FM and later FA you needlessly reduce the clientele by making the car too small for that ultimate "formula" performance edge. Single make series, cars are bigger to suit.
Freitas hit it on the head - cheap to buy, crazy expensive to operate, and I'll add complicated to boot. IMHO, if Apexspeed had not emerged when it did, allowing a lot of greybeards to assist newcomers with the technical side of this, all of these classes would have died a decade ago.
There are some people here that want to race, and would like large fields so that virtually everybody has someone to race with. There are others who just want to win, and that only requires one other car on the grid.
If the people that just want to race and have someone to race with would race, regardless of their competitiveness, they would achieve their goal. Instead they park their cars because they don't feel they are competitive or there's nobody to race against which causes the next guy to park his car because there's nobody to race against, which causes the next guy. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner
Having just spent days putting 60 lbs of ballast in to our car (beyond the 20 lbs of built-in ballast) I can say that I am not a fan of SCCA instituting mid-season minimum weight rule changes. Our cars are not sedans. Finding placement for another 20 lbs is an "off-season" job for many of us that already run ballast in the obvious locations. My issue was accentuated by changing to a 30 lb lighter driver but I anticipate needing to add another 10-15 lbs and I don't know where that will be. I will run extra fuel initially, but at some point, the races will be long enough that I will need more actual ballast. of course, I would certainly be more enthusiastic about the job if it was based on science and not a political stunt.
l’m it will be worth all your hard work as I hear people working on their cars that have sat for 10 plus years or more ready to come out once again to compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Expanded your thought...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl DeArman
For each of us here who comment, how many other readers never do? (only DC knows that one for sure)
Point being, without all the constant and unnecessary challenges forced onto competitors, how many more would return, or show up for the first time?
Self-fulfilling prophecy if you ask me.
Hello folks,
My question today is... If I buy a F2000 RF97 with a Pinto engine, Am I eligible and legal for the 2021 FRP championship points as well as the championship award?
Thank you for bring me back :)
You always have been eligible in the FRP series and still are.Quote:
Originally Posted by RKiopini
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maybe we can learn from another classes demise. S2000 was once very popular and it was folded in P2. Why did it die? Why did those cars stop coming out? What problems can we avoid? There is a lot of passion here, no one can question that. I have two cars, a 95 VD with a long rod Pinto and a 2005 VD Zetec. I don't feel like the engines are very different, the aerodynamics on my newer car do seem very different. The diffuser on the old car is smaller and likely, less useful, the new car is much more developed and feels significantly faster in the corners. They are both fun to race and my 14 year old son is itching to get in the older car. I'm trying to develop an FC community here in the greater Pittsburgh area and we have some signs of life. The Steel Cities Region had a special run group for the GLC 10 days ago, I thought more folks might have shown up for that event. A Zetec car needed to run 1250 if the driver wanted GLC points but if he didn't care about collecting points he could have raced at any weight. Is Pittsburgh too far for both the east-coast guys as well as the mid-west guys? Maybe its just this pandemic that is hurting this year, lots of the FC guys are over 50? As far as raising the weights, no problem for me, I'm not nearly as intense about the car set up as some, I get in and drive, I'll get better, I'll just keep racing, with the GLC or the SCCA or FRP or Vintage, whatever. I'm having fun. I'm on board with the guys who want to keep FC its own group, I support that. But I'll race either way, these cars are too much fun to let sit. What do I think will 'save' the class, beats me, I say we thrown everything at the wall and see what sticks! Personally, I let kids sit in my cars and talk to anyone who will listen abut what a terrific value these cars are, very fast and economical to run. I post stuff on Instagram and have posted videos on YouTube. Those are my thoughts, see you at the track, Peace!
No matter the class......it always seems like the same folks arguing for rules changes or a lack of depending on what suits their current equipment inventory. Shocker.
A weird chain of events for me earlier this year, combined with the newer pinto rules has me joining FC for SCCA Majors and FRP in 2021. New build should be on track in the next couple of months. So thats one new car....
Cant wait to see you at the track.
you should explain which new pinto rules convinced you to start again, and why, since that seems to be the impetus behind the weight rule at least. And was your car in the garage for a while - and if so why - or did you buy a new one?
Had been racing a 01 VD FF with a kent. In the process of putting together what I wanted for FF going forward, I ran across a package deal on a 99 VD pinto that I initially was planning to run in FF. Tons of FC spares. That got me thinking, did I really want to part out all of this stuff? My current engine builder seemed quite confident in his pinto expertise and what the potential of a long rod motor might look like. Going faster is always more fun right? So I figured what the heck. There are some additional factors that were becoming less appealing in FF, but thats another topic.
It was definitely the newer engine rules in the last few years that persuaded me run this car in FC instead of FF based on the circumstances listed above. 20 lbs shouldnt make anyone bring a car back out to the track or keep them at home. Thats silly. Ive spent all of my formula car life 20lbs over. If anything, this just means the zetec guys wont weigh less than me.... lol.
the '99 appears to have last been raced in SCCA in 2008 by St Claire as an FF. So this car has been sitting for quite some time. Like most bargains, it needed quite a bit more than originally thought and taken much longer. Its going to be basically a brand new 99 VD pinto. At least it seems I have saved one.