FC/FS/FM/FA/F1000 dropped from MARRS Series?

To interested parties:
I received and interesting email this morning from someone who attended the Wash DC region comp committee last night, looks like a few open wheel classes got nixed from the MARRS series next year... read below

[SIZE=2]hello everyone,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]welllll, we had the comp committee meeting last night to decide run groups for next year.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]you will be happy. its is back running with another it class for 2007. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]the run groups are:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1 - open wheel (restricted)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]2 - srx7/it7/ssb/ssc[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]3 - srf/csr/dsr[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]4 - sm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]5 - small bore/t3/t4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]6 - ssm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]7 - its/itr/ita[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]8 - big bore/P1/P2/t1/t2/SP*[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]9 - itb/itc[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]* SP= autocross class street prepared, basically built to it specs, with less engine restrictions.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]we have run with ita before, and i am sure we can play nice together. great (and competitive!) group of drivers in that class.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]unfortunately, to get this grouping, we had to make the marrs series a "restricted regional" series of events. putting all the open wheels together in one run group made sense from a numbers game, but introduced some safety concerns that resulted in dropping fs, fm, fc, fa and f1000 from the marrs series. not a situation anyone really wanted, but given the large size of all the run groups except the open wheel ones, something had to finally be done to address it. there was considerable debate on the run group topic this year to probe all the various options. excluding classes was definitely not a decision taken lightly, and not something i particularly wanted to do.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]i will be sorting out any car number conflicts with the ita drivers rep in the near future. conflicts will be resolved by who has qualified to have the number longer.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Looks like SCCA regional competitors (DC region any way) will have to look for another place to play... The Formula Pro Racing series is fun, competitive, and well run, and the F2000 series had a great first year (for the FC guys).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Where will you play???[/SIZE]

I just read essentially the same thing on the FV Marrs board...

I dont have one of the eliminated groups, but I forsee it coming. Really a sad day for the real race cars when they are restricted from the biggest racing organization :(

There are other clubs out there that welcome the open wheeled cars wings or not and I hope that the racers continue to race and dont give up just because one organization decides they arent worthy.

just my 2 cents for now..

The DC Region Board will be discussing this issue at their next meeting. The Board may well bump the issue back to the Competition Committee, with instructions to re-consider.

Affected or interested MARRS competitors would do well to lobby (politely yet emphatically) their Board members.

Having said all that, I have to remind folks that this situation didn't come out of the blue. Open wheel MARRS entries (and, in particular FV and FC entries in 2006) have dropped dramatically, at the same time as SM/IT entries have gone up. There is a market in play here, folks. If open wheel drivers want MARRS race groups, they need to enter events.

John Nesbitt
DC Region CF/FF Drivers Rep

A Defination of Open Wheel Resticted is:

One Group - FF/CF/F5/FV
Second Group - SRF/S2/CSR/DSR

Eliminated are - FA/FC/FM/FS/F1000

If I want to get some seat time at some of the tracks in the MARRS Region, I guess it will be Via www.frcca.com and www.formulaproracing.org. Anyone know if NASA has a race run group for our cars?

I see the other open wheel goup at risk in the future as well.... It is a shame but wiht the declining car couts, this is probably inevitable.

If you are affected by this decision, you need to do more than lobby any one (or more) of the Region's directors. You really need to send a carefully reasoned letter/email to the entire Region Board (or at least to the Regional Executive) asking that this decision be revisited.

Dave

I was at the meeting representing (some would say poorly or unsuccessfully) the Winged Formula cars.

I'm not sure how appropriate it is for me to comment on the details of the meeting in an open forum, at least not yet. As I understand it, until its been approved by the Board of Directors it isn't final. If you are a DC Region member please send an email to your BoD with your opinions. Their email addresses are available on the WDC website http://www.wdcr-scca.org/email/contacts.php.

This agenda was pushed forward by closed wheel groups in an effort to make their races better. They had no concern about sending formula car club members home with no place to race.

I feel as though I've failed all the winged guys both present and future. The biggest disappointment is that there won't be a place in the DC area for new winged formula guys to race which will completely kill the classes.

It needs to be said that the car counts are way down for all formula classes at MARRS events and if drivers aren't going to or can't support their class then this is inevitable.

An open invitation to ALL open wheeled Formula Cars to come and join an organization that has been devoted to the open wheeled formulas since 1980. Where you will get the respect and track time that you deserve. Track time averages about 1 hour and 45 minutes per day. The club I am speaking of is the Formula Race Car Club of America. The club is now based out of Garage 24 at Summit Point Raceway and can be reached via internet at www.frcca.com or by phone at 304-725-4644 or 570-669-9589 for those of you a little more North of South. We have room for all classes and the respect for you that you deserve, you will not only have a home with us but more important you will be at home with us. Class sharing is more the rarity than the rule and safety is the number one concern. We may not be as national as some groups but we can hold our own when it comes to the level of competition on track. Give us a try you won't be disappointed!
John Heckman

is it me or are we all getting totally screwwed by the SCCA these days?

Just a suggestion. make it clear that if the DC region will not support your class then you will withhold your support of their national races. And then do so! I realize it means giving up closer races but that's about the only impact you are liable to have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HazelNut

is it me or are we all getting totally screwwed by the SCCA these days?

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This is not SCCA screwing you...this is your local tin top guys screwing you. There's a difference...:skull:

Please dont consider this to be a post supporting this decision, because it's not. But out of curiosity, and out of concern that this decision could spread to other regions, including my own, I went to the MARRS results to see how many entries they have had for the classes they propose to eliminate. All one has to do is look at the entries to see why this decision is being made. For 2005, for more than half the races in the MARRS series, there were less than 5 TOTAL cars that started the race in either FA/FC/FM/FSSCA. In 2006 the avergae was a little better, but still under 10 cars TOTAL in these classes for each race. Complaining on this board is one thing, but if people arent going to show up at the races, then no amount of complaining will do any good.

Tom

Charles,
That's a good suggestion but I have one very great concern about boycotting the National, it's my belief (and that of many others) that the region would like to get rid of the National and have another restricted regional in its place. If participation falls too low at the national I expect the motion will come up to get rid of the National. I'm personally torn.

Stan,
You missed the most important part... it's regional only tin tops bringing this up.

Tom,
Good point but take that thought a step further and look at how many closed wheel classes have even fewer cars in them than FC or FA. There are 8 closed wheel classes that had cars participate who had fewer cars on average for the year than FC or FA had. If those classes were restricted then the group numbers become much more manageable for the closed wheel groups and we won't need to get rid of a formula class. I'm not suggesting they do this but it is more fair if you want to base it on class participation. Btw... they are keeping CF, FF and f 500 all of which have the same or less participation than FC and FA had.

If Keith can tell me how to post a spreadsheet I'll provide the numbers.

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/u...7;t=001043;p=0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chas Shaffer

Stan,
You missed the most important part... it's regional only tin tops bringing this up.

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That's why I described them as "your local tin top guys". [Emphasis added.] Stan

Wonder what happens at the MARRS/SARRC event at VIR. I did notice they included all the new national closed wheel classes. hmmm, dont those other open wheel series in that area use a spec tire? IS it a conspiracy??? (typed with tongue firmly in cheek)

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chas Shaffer

Charles,
That's a good suggestion but I have one very great concern about boycotting the National, it's my belief (and that of many others) that the region would like to get rid of the National and have another restricted regional in its place. If participation falls too low at the national I expect the motion will come up to get rid of the National. I'm personally torn.

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Chas,

I don't think a region is allowed to have a racing program without certain requirements. From the depths of memory I remember something like at least one national and at least one school. This may have all changed by now and maybe they can decide to stop national racing. Maybe Stan can clear that up for us. More's the pity but I say let that happen (I know, my ox is not being gored) and let them lose a good source of revenue, and, I might add, a good amount of face. It seems the DC region has decided to go off on its own and impose some Draconian "solutions" to perceived problems instead of allowing the classes that are active in the SCCA. I wonder if this "solution" was put before the membership at large (before enaction) with a solicitation for member input as to possible alternate courses of action

And I am sure no one feels you have failed the group. Sometimes the deck is stacked and the outcome predetermined. You have fought the good fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

Maybe Stan can clear that up for us.

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It's all laid out for races in 3.17.2. Schools are addressed in 3.1.2.E.

Stan

It looks as if they can have a regional only schedule. If that's what they really want then IMO they have lost their original mandate.

As the 03, 04 and 06 FC Marrs champion (the 05 champ is standing behind me as I type), I think I should comment on this big sack of steaming BS. We are not DC region members, we stayed with Susquehanna region out of respect for the late Lynn Dehart. Let us know who to email etc. I just left a message for Bill Scott.
As a former super vee champion and owner of their playground, we thought he'd like know.

Hey Chas, were any of the voting attendees or principles Chief of the Grid or Chief Steward at the Runoffs? Maybe it is a conspiracy and the total arrogance and disrespect shown to he FC group was not a "comedy of errors" but in fact the sanctioned behavior of SCCA officials.

-Rick Silver

I for one am glad to have one more reason to not be a DC region member. The SCCA gets further from member control !!!!!! Tom Guthrie fv03 now ff03

wow the guys in the miata forum are total d*cks!


And they call us formula guys arrogant:

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]ask yourself how much track time the 6 guys who now have to run nationals would be getting without 60 SM/SSM entries showing up at every MARRS event to pay the track rental."[/SIZE][/FONT]

Just out of curiosity what drove the decision to completely exclude the fast winged cars, and keep equally fast DSR/CSR?

It seems to me you could addjust the run groups to:
Fast F/SR: FA,FC,FM,FS,F1000,CSR,DSR
Slow F/SR: FV,F5,CF,FF,SRF

Still allows everyone to play safely and excludes noone.

Sean

When all is said and done remember that there is only 1 club in the area that caters to the Formula cars. As mentioned above it is the FRCCA. We all do this as a hobby (more or less) why put yourselves through the total frustration that I am reading. Tell them if they don't need you you don't need them and come and join us. We may be not be as big MARRS but growth is easier than being too big as you are seeing right now. Remember Garage 24 Summit Point 304-725-4644.

John,
If all goes as designed by the DC Region, not to allow fast winged cars, could FRCCA events be used as a pre-national license requirement? It seems that you offer a good alternative to bypass the region as long as those members who wish to become or retain SCCA natinoal driver status can do so. If not, maybe this could be presented to the board. By the sounds of this thread, I am inclined to say that the affected members would be more than happy to register with another region if they wish to retain their SCCA membership. Boycotting the DC region due to their actions speaks louder than words.

Jason

Racing here in New England I am not familiar with the structure of the MARRS series. Is this restriction a MARRS restriction or just MARRS events sanctioned by the DC Region? ( or is the DC Region the only sponsor of all the MARRS events?) We have the NARRC up here but there are four different regions holding the NARRC events. I am not sure what would happen if say the New England Region decided to take such an action. Would Mo-Hud, NYR and NNJR have to do the same even if they were against it?
Ed Capullo

Quote:

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Just out of curiosity what drove the decision to completely exclude the fast winged cars, and keep equally fast DSR/CSR?

It seems to me you could addjust the run groups to:
Fast F/SR: FA,FC,FM,FS,F1000,CSR,DSR
Slow F/SR: FV,F5,CF,FF,SRF

Still allows everyone to play safely and excludes noone.

Sean

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Sean,

As a former FV driver in MARRS I get regular emails from the FV driver rep. He has successfully lobbied in previous years that it is unsafe to combine SRF and FV because an SRF driver can't see a Vee in his mirrors. The speed differential between FA/FC and FV makes them an incompatable pairing. The Director of Competition and the RE have agreed with this and kept FV/F500 a separate group for years despite its relatively low participation numbers as a group. The fact that the C/D SR classes can be grouped with other sport racers and FF/CF are mariginally acceptable with FV/F500 probably led to those grouping and left FA and FC with no place to go.

For the record, I was briefly (in 2005) the DC Region's Competition Director, but am currently just a grunt worker.

Which means I was NOT at the meeting in question, but have reports from several who were. I know from my past tenure that this action has been in the works for several years. And it was not directed just at FC, nor was it the brainchild of SCCA officials! My sources indicate that most of the "officials" at the meeting either voted against the restriction or abstained from voting thinking they had no dog in the race. (FYI to Rick: the Chief of Grid at the Runoffs is a NON-VOTING member of the DC competition committee.)

The driver rep for SM, while bemoaning the loss of several friends who drive the affected cars, admits this is something he has worked hard at for 3 years. It's a business decision, folks. plain and simple. (That's a quote, don't shoot me.) The numbers tell the story. And the closed wheels voted as a bloc.

Interestingly, I remember only just a very few years ago when the Miatas were the target because of their perceived arrogance, includng the fact that they were demanding two separate classes and two separate race groups for what is the same car with relatively minor modifications. And many of those "60" cars are the same driver running twice, once in each race group. They've done a terrific PR job, and diverted attention to a sitting duck....

The thing is, the open-wheels are an easy target. Cars in this category are not easily combined with others, and size and speed differentials create a serious hazard if you try to put FV with FA. And face it, there just aren't enough of you.

The reason for keeping the equally fast CSR/DSR/S2 is that as Sports Racers they ever so slightly fit in better with SRF than the true open wheelers. So Sean, while your grouping may be a solution, I can guarantee you that the driver reps for the SRF/FF/FV classes will fight that one tooth and nail (course, SRF doesn't like the CSR/DSR/S2 thing either ...)

Unfortunately, the suggestion to eliminate tin-tops with less than 5 average cars doesn't really have much impact, because most of those classes are already afterthoughts in other larger groups.

Just FYI, the DC Pit Chief sent out a newsletter with details of the meeting (yes, that's one of my sources), and has been bombarded with responses in favor of keeping the open wheels. There's a lot of support out there.

But let me tell you what that support is all about. And I think this is every bit as important to a "business", especially one that's a CLUB.

First of all, eliminating these classes will be guaranteed to drive away a number of current and long-time club MEMBERS. Who pay their dues like everybody else. And not just the affected FA and FC drivers, but the open-wheels who are still here who see that they are next. This effectively disenfranchises members without a by-law change.

Secondly, these are the marquee cars we're talking about. When you try to introduce a non-racing friend to your sport, do you entice them with the fact that there are 60 Miatas out there going at each other? Not a chance. You point to FA/FCs and track records and comparison with Indy or F1 and historic racing names like Andrettis and Rahal and even, heaven knows, Bill Scott. You eliminate these cars, you eliminate a great deal of your lustre. Anybody can walk into a car dealership and buy a Miata.

And what happens when these guys go the way of the SS Neons and the SRX7s before them? These are two relatively recent phenoms: the Neons have all but disappeared. Will you guys then come back when the club comes calling?

This is a quote from one of the Pit newsletter responses:

"It saddens and disgusts me that we in the DC Region, who pride ourselves on the club racing program we provide our membership, are unable or unwilling to continue to provide members of our racing community with the service which is, in effect, our "core business." And, lest we forget, our "core business" is to be a CLUB to serve our membership rather than a corporation which simply "downsizes" its unprofitable elements and cuts them adrift. This is just wrong, wrong, WRONG."

So go back up a bit on this thread and follow the advice given by Chas, Dave Gomberg, and John Nesbitt, and let the BOD know. And it wouldn't hurt to let the competition committee know either. Contact names are in the Straightpipe and on the DC Region website at www.wdcr-scca.org ...

numbers and money talk!

no one can expect to keep racing forever as car counts decrease while other classes increase.

here's a link to check participation numbers

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/pdfs/after78.pdf

some of the open wheel classes did better than some of the tin top classes.

One important thing (among many) that Anne said and which now sticks out like a sore thumb, even though I missed it when I glanced at the proposed race groups in the first post, is that the Miatas now have 2 complete race groups for themselves yet most of the cars racing in these two classes are the same cars and drivers. So for the sake of having TWO race groups for themselves they selfishly deprive cars and drivers in classes that have ben around forever of any chance to race at all. While great for them, how can this be in the best interest of the club as a whole?
Tom

just a note when you look at MARRS points and use it for participation numbers. The MARRS sereis ignores any car that doesnt run the marrs decal. If you start 50 cars and only the last place driver runs the sticker then he gets the " win" and is the only one who will show in the points table. Rule was put in place to pacify drivers who couldnt beat " out of towners".

Kind of funny really, say that racing in a small group is a waste of time but expect 1st place points even when you get beat. Welcome to the current mentality in our area.

AS for FRCCA and the other clubs being the place to go, Do you offer 5-6 3day weekends a year on the main track ? Racing the new " track" is akin to taking a shower in your dogs water dish. Yes you get wet but not very satisfying. To each their own but the shenandoah circuit makes topeka look like the pre chicane monza.

Anne, thanks for your thoughtful reply. My comments above are driven by a high degree of frustration. I consider myself an amateur racer and the concept of the SCCA represents racing as a high level hobby and where my racing interests lie.

As you say, this has been in the works for some timenow. An example of the problem was at the Topeka Nationals this year. I was at the second one, and would have hoped they learned from this. There were I believe 54 cars at the second national. FA, FC, FM, CSR, and S2 were grouped together and made for very unpleasant qualifying and race. It took almost an hour to clean up the wreckage after the race.

We were scolded as a group for rough driving, but the grouping really led to the problems. This has happened several times in the last few years for the FC group at Summit Point nationals. 45 open wheeled cars of different classes is just way too many for that track. So, they need to make new classes for the Spec Miata. The numbers dictate it and unlike the closed wheeled groups it is a lot harder to just stick the open wheleled cars all together.

As as long as the SCCA caters to the numbers alone, and with the appearance of a dislike of the faster open wheeled cars, we are on a downward path. I could be wrong, but I think the proliferation of open wheeled classes adding FSCCA and F1000 to the national ranks will just make matters worse. It really does look bleak for the open wheeled ranks. We finally tried to address the motor problem in FC and what happens, 2 new national classes (I am just assuming this will happen) that compete directly with FC. The problem is the SCCA seems to not be showing leadership and strong support for rejuvination and renewed growth in the existing open wheeled classes. FSCCA competes directly with FM and F1000 competes directly with FC. How is the leadership in Canada and the UK different to allow continued growth and competition in FF?

I believe this is a DC Region problem.If they allow 2 run groups for the same cars that can compete in two classes, open wheeled cars have no chance for track time.If the powers that be in DC Region are allowed to not have run groups for certain car classes that in my opinion is not what this club is all about.To exclude classes from the Regional Series so some of the more populated Miata classes can run twice is ridiculous and just plain wrong.What kind of sense of fairness to your fellow club member is that?What about all the other run groups how long will it be till they are run off as well?

This is a much better link for checking the numbers. This shows total #s of cars by class for every DC Region event at SP for the last 4 years. This is the chart used by the comp. committee when evaluating participation and considering run groupings.

And Ed, to answer your question, the DC Region IS the MARRS series and vice versa. Unlike your NARRC series. We historically take two events in the series out of region: one is the Double MARRS/SARRC held at VIR, and one other that typically changes every year. But the MARRS rules are DC only.

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/pdfs/2006CarCounts.pdf

The Miatas (Again) Road Racing Series.

Sorry to read this BS. Wish there was something other than moral support that I could offer. If there are events staged without winged cars, then maybe there should be events staged without Miatas. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dave

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/u...7;t=001043;p=2

[SIZE=2]Let me remind you guys that you already get about 12 hours more track time than the openwheel guys do at Summit. Openwheel guys are already not
allowed to run the "restricted regional" 12 hour Enduro. Additionally, many or most of you Miata guys already run in more than one race group during a weekend. Half the time, you don't get track time because your group can't keep from hitting each other and knocking each other off the track and tearing up cars, shortening or black flagging your sessions. And that's not
an opinion or bashing. Your groups have been reprimanded several times by the stewards over the past few seasons.

Let me also remind you, probably before most of even raced at Summit, there was a time where open wheel cars WERE over subscribed. Not that long ago... mid 90's. NEVER was there ever talk about killing any of the tintops to make another race group. I used to make the tow to Summit, show up and wonder if I was going to get to race.

Stop trying to mislead this forum because no one is getting left out of the current format. You only want more at the expense of others. In fact, not one race or race group in 2005 or 2006 was over subscribed (Jason Meise). So what are you talking about not getting to race. Here are the numbers: [/SIZE][SIZE=2]http://www.wdcrscca.org/pdfs/2006CarCounts.pdf.[/SIZE][SIZE=2] SCCA rules allow Summit 55 cars to run and not one race group got above 47 the whole year 2006. Except the National. Where are the 50-70 Miatas?
Why not worry about them when they show up?

Webster defines selfish: "seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others" What else do you call this than being selfish. Your gain at the expense of others. Have you considered the shops who have $50-100-200K invested in taking care of openwheel cars
at the MARRS events? Their shops, rigs, kids, their houses?? That's what I call selfish, so you can get more track time.

I would be curious to see what your WHOLE group really thinks about this. All I continually see are the same few names that keep appearing, pushing the idea. Why don't you post actual names of drivers who support this. At least half of the Miata drivers I have talked to at Summit don't agree with you. Mike jumps down the throat of someone who disagrees with him to push his own agenda. Who else is Mike strong arming at Summit to push his selfish agenda. If you want to continue this pursue this SELFISH course of action, what goes around comes around. You forget... Bill Scott (owner of Summit Point for those who don't know) is a SuperVee champion, has been and always be an openwheel racer. Will he do something about it? Maybe, maybe not. We'll wait and see..

What is your plan Mike? Are you running two groups? of SM? How do you qualify? How do you race? How do you run the points? If you break up the field into two groups, you will
only have 10-15 cars in one group. Oh wait you can't have that ...

Ed, lets be accurate here. There was NO opposition other than "Do we really need another class?" When the numbers were shown to exist. There was no opposition from the openwheeler group. How do I know? Because I was at the
meeting and I was the one representing the openwheelers as CF and FC driver's rep. If you are going to post information, let's not mislead your forum and be decitful.

PS I think it interesting how the "moderator" tells those who don't agree with him they aren't entitled to post their own opinion on this board and then continues to run him off. I don'tsee Mike telling Jim to shut up and go away, even though he isn't in the region and doesn't race there. Shows the sense of entitlement from this group, turing on and strong arming drivers to push their agends.

When I first tried to register for this form as "openwheel racer" I was not given access until I had to change who I was. So this form is being censored.

Mark, there is no need to hide who you are. Let them come at me with the BS and mudslinging.

Andy Chu
FC 58
CF 98 [/SIZE]

Well put Andy..
I was going to post there, but "did you notice this is a spec miata forum?"...
Notice Jim B never answered Anne's question about those guys double dipping (specifically HIM)...
I have to tell you from reading through the posts on the SM forum, those guys (and gals) really do act like they own the region...

I really hope this works out for the WDCR Winged Cars, reading and rereading the chatter here and on the other boards it doesn't sound as if it's a done deal at all, unless you all stop making noise.

I left scca after 20 years of involvement in one form or another after politics became paramount to "Club Racing". I have noted some jabs here also regarding FPR and FRCCA. I'll speak more directly to FPR [a member club of EMRA] as I am more familiar with them.

No they don't offer 5 or 6 -3 day weekends. They do offer 12 race weekends, some weekends being double or triple race events at Beaverun, Lime Rock, Pocono, Watkins Glen and the main track at Summit.
Re: Shenandoah, Yes they go there once a year. 1/3 of the open wheelers stay home. They DO NOT utilize the Carousel [instead the bus stop after the bridge] and everyone who's driven it loves it. Shenandoah is a place to play.

Lindsey Wolfer has put together quite a series in FPR, average entry $190.00, Contingency Awards [back to the last place finisher] including Tires at each event and International Medial Coverage but most importantly no political BS. Sort of like the way scca was before it became a business.

And yes he has ZTec's, CF's, FF's, FV's, F2000's [2 classes] and FA's. There will also be joining us at Summit 11/18-19 an F1000.

I also have been involved with FRCCA and find them and their members as pleasant and accommodating as any. I have no involvement in FPR or FRCCA except I pay my Race Entry Fee.

Final Thought: I wish this would have come to light before the final MARR's Race, between FPR and FRCCA I'm sure they could have brought out 20/30 cars in your support.

Looking at the numbers for the MARRS races in 2005 and 2006 for which Anne included a link in her last post, I frankly dont understand the impetus or the rationale for adopting this rule change eliminating the winged cars. There were no oversubscribed classes or race groups in either of those years (using the 55 car limit for the track) and nobody was sent home or even came close to being turned away. Only once, in 2005, did they have over 50 cars in a group at a regional race, and not once in 2006 were there over 50 cars. So what exactly was wrong with the run groups used last year? Yes there are new classes being created by SCCA, but who knows how many of those will show up AND more likely if they do show up it will be an existing racer moving into that new class. If and when the new classes create a problem, then and only then should changes to the run groups be considered.

In terms of a solution to propose to the competition committee or BoD, if you look at the run groups being adopted for 2007, and if you take the 2006 participation numbers and plug them into these new groups, you will find 3 groups with 30 or less average entries: 2007 Group 2 (SRX7, IT7, SSB,SSC); 2007 Group 7 (ITS, ITA) and 2007 Group 9 (ITB, ITC). If you were to split proposed Group 9 and move ITC to Group 2 and move ITB to Group 7, the average car count in the new groups would be around 45, still well under the 55 limit. That would give everyone a chance to race including the wing cars.

Tom

I have heard it said here before, why is there a need to eliminate the group instead of just moving the cars into other groups? Other regions place cars in different groups ie FF is with FC and FA etc in Central Fla. and FF is with FV and F500 in Fla Region.
In many other areas IT and Spec miata seem to get the attention of the stewards to the point of stewards saying "we need them to make our weekends profitable". Forgotten is the idea that this is a non-profit organization [club], and originally was concieved to not exclude anyone who wanted to participate. If someone were sharp enough to read into the book, I think they would find that a National or Regional event must be open to all classes of cars, unless it is described as a "restricted" event.
For years IT events such as Enduro's have altered the track time others get on the same weekend. In Central Fla IT enduro's can have hundreds of entries, prompting me to offer up the idea that enduro's have stand-alone events as do other SCCA specialties such as Solo, Rally etc.
For the time at hand I do hope the cars can be fit into another group. that would be the most efficent decision, and the easiest to implement.
Alan

Jason,

Many,many,many years ago I recieved a SCCA National license based soley on RCCA (FRCCCA) experience. I believe this still to be true. The divisional licensing directors (Not sure of the exact title) have considerable leeway in making these decisions.


I also like your idea of changing regions upon renewal, doesn't matter if you were directly affected or not. If I ran say E-Prod in that region I still wouldn't want to be a member, upon renewal just change your region. The regional dues go to the region of your choice.


Peronally I feel there is a place for restricted regionals. Perhaps even restricted nationals (for a track that has 2 nationals a year) for that matter, but the entire series? No.


Jim Little
Drivers Services

The region seems to think (by what I have read) that they will add 40 entries per event by eliminating the proposed classes... Like the 275 average car count isnt enough? It is looking more and more like the region cares more about the bottom line then their members. Economics are absolutely important so we have a place to race, but for them to cry "this is a business decision" is pure horsesh1t. This is not a region that is hurting financially, as far as I can tell.

i don't run big bore formula cars. but anyone that straps in a car without fenders is my brother. this sucks. i posted what is below on the vee board. pretty much sums up what i think, and i'm too lazy to type it again, so i just cut and paste.

edit- i reread alan's post above. if ya really want to piss in their porridge, the first event that they have and do not note it as a restricted regional, show up on late entry with your open wheel car and protest them. yeah it's petty, but so is this.

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[SIZE=2]what a bag of crap. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]yeah....i'm not surprised. but it still sucks. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]we've seen some defections from the marrs series this past year. hank bilek in F500 comes to mind, and i met a couple of people in other open wheel classes (FC if i recall) who are traveling south to run SARRC instead of marrs. the feedback i've gotten so far has been extremely positive. they like being appreciated and find the competition good, the tracks good, just an all around positive experience. and hey....it's good for our numbers. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]complaints i heard from many of them centered on being treated as second class citizens in marrs. the move to SARRC has universally been viewed as a step up, and worth the extra drive. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]this is just a byproduct of the taking over of scca by the tin top minions and their ilk. the arrogance of excluding formula cars is just unfathomable. if their desire is to become a boring little milquetoast crash fest of boring little tin top cars bashing into each other, then good job marrs series! hell...it's a one track series! that's excitement! NOT! (no, VIR does NOT count....it's a NC region track!) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]i'd be willing to bet that the random chick in a bar would be much more impressed to find out you run open wheel than that you race a barbie car. but being married 20 years, i'll have to let someone else put my theory to test. lol [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]to address all you open wheel guys in REAL race cars who are being treated like crap in your present series......head south. we'll take ya. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]long live SARRC. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]bill [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]fv31 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2](marrs intentionally in lower case letters to show contempt)[/SIZE]

This seems so odd to me, probably because I'm only familiar with SARRC & NARRC. I don't think either of those series would dream of excluding ANY nationally recognized class. Is MARRS some kind of a Restricted Regional series, not regular regional races that count towards the MARRS championship? Am I wrong about SARRC & NARRC?

3 ideas

1. and maybe i'm wrong here but i seem to have come across this stat somewhere.....from the car count standpoint....with SCCA Nationals being number one.....the SARRC series is the second best subscribed series in the USA.

2. for roughly ten years here in the Cent. Fla. region of SCCA I have only known SRF and F500 and FV to be in the same grid for regionals. split starts for the SRF vs the F500 and FV.........but it works. FV F500 and FF for Nationals.

3. is DC region enforcing the qualifying 110% [or is it 120%] rule? that will eliminate oversubscribed classes in the tin tops. in roughly 10 years i've never seen the % qualifying rule enforced at any of the roughly 50 events i've entered.

Hi Russ,
As someone pointed out in the thread a region can choose to request a sanction for a regional event as a Restricted Regional, meaning not every class will run.
To the best of my knowledge this avenue has been used to sanction things like an SRF "Pro" race in support of an existing pro weekend at any track, as an example SRF in support of ALMS at Lime Rock. I am not aware of this tactic being used to exclude certain classes from an entire series however. As a way of including one or more classes on a non-SCCA weekend it is a very useful method for a promoter to fill out the card on an existing race weekend with some track time available.
The Restricted Regional sanction in this instance is exclusionary and appears driven by "bottom liners", if you will, with some justification. Some, not to say complete justification, in any way, shape , or form. Justified in that they, the WDCRegion, seems determined to maximise the revenue streams available to them on any given MARRD weekend. Not justifiable, in my opinion, in that it sets a precedent and will surely be very divisory among the membership.
To the best of my knowledge, and for sure someone on this forum will point out my error SARRC, NARRC, and until now MARRS, have been Regional level points championships open to all approved SCCA Regional classes.
Is this the start of a disturbing trend ? Possibly.
I suspect this will get , well, "interesting" might not be the exact correct word but it may be apt.
I will be curious to hear what comes out of the NEDIV Mini-Con just over today, Sunday 11/12, in South Jersy regarding this topic.

Mike, it seems you are right on the money. Just going by what Stan Clayton has posted over on the Miata forum, under the SCCA rules a region must have a place for all recognized classes for its regional series. If Stan is correct then this action will have to be reversed.

Tom

Just from an outsider looking in (meaning I don't run in that region and have only read this thread and the one on the Miata forum) I find this not only disturbing, but interesting relative to the motivations of the people behind this. From what I have read, the rep from the Miata group, Mike, has been lobbying for this for several years to increase his groups track time. From what I can read from his signature, he also rents miatas for these races. Now, granted I do'nt know Mike personally, but I find it a bit fishy that this whole move to exclude other groups can not only increase his track time, but his revenue as more track time means more rental fees.

One would hope this would not be the motivation, but then again, excluding club members for personal gain (even if just track time) is shady at best.

Ken

No matter how this works out (for the record I hope everyone has a place to race) I think this is a sign that classes should strive to keep their run counts high or they risk being pushed out by more popular classes. Capitalism at its best I guess.

Sure there are personalities and other motivations involved, but this wouldn't have happened if the numbers didn't at least support it.