Seeking ideas to drastically lower my club racing costs

Regretably, I am very close to reaching the painful conclusion that I just can't afford to continue racing. The cost of a weekend (no matter how cheaply I try to do it), has gotten way too high for the amount of money I have for a hobby.

Before I throw in the towel, I thought it might be worth asking for ways to reduce costs that I haven't considered yet. I'm already sleeping in my tow vehicle, doing all my own work (with no crew), and forgoing test days, new tires and longer tows. There is little chance that my job salary is going to increase or even keep pace with inflation. Occasionally I negotiate assistance (product/labor) from companies (semi-sponsorship), but I don't think I could get a "real" sponsor.

I hate the idea of giving up something that means so much to me, but the frustration of owning a race car/tow vehicle/trailer and not being able to afford to go racing has about reached the tipping point.

PS. I know that almost everyone is feeling the pinch and that I'm not alone. Maybe this thread can help.

Russ -

I know exactly how you feel. A few things that I do to convince myself I'm not going into debt:

1.) Buy used tires from John Berget. I typically buy R35's so I can get two good race weekends out of them - $250 for four races.

2.) Run regionals - I don't see the track-time justification for the higher price of nationals, although the competition level is higher there. I also only do "double" weekends.

3.) Run pump gas - In F1000, you have a stock engine like I do (Hayabusa), so I run 91 octane fuel instead of race gas.

4.) Tow slowly - I typically tow at 65-70mph to help with gas mileage a bit. I've also foregone out-of-state events I had planned on, so I tow no more than about 5 hours each way.

I also try to split hotels whenever I can, but if you're already sleeping in your trailer, you're ahead of me in that regard.

Running out of ideas myself! :yellowflag:

-Jake

Race less.

Really the only way I see spending less. Other savings can turn out to be false economies... ie- crap tires- true, less expensive but more likely to have crash damage and you'll never know what you were capable of doing which is less fun.

Racing less, if your not in debt, allows you to continue with a hobby that you love and do it in a way that you can afford. A double and a single keeps your license current...

I've thought not only about the crunch the racing can make you feel but how I might otherwise spend the money. As I write this I'm looking out at the beach (we spend 2-4pm in the condo while Remy naps)... it's a beatiful day and we've had a great time this week. Cost is about the same as a race weekend. (!) Makes me feel bad about spending the money to go race when I could take Whit & Remy back here which I'd almost rather do.
I've been racing for the past 5 years on my bonus money from work... and for the 1st time in 10+ years w/ the company we did not see one last year, probably won't again this year. Its definately made me seriously consider getting out.
I do have a lot of time, sweat, and love into my FB and before I did anything like that I'll let it sit for a year and see how I feel. Only costs me a garage space then.

Run Track Trials (formerly Solo I). Granted you don't satisfy the wheel-to-wheel competition need, but you get to go as fast as you dare and every lap is a qualifying lap. We have a very strong TT program here in SEDIV and my experience was I could run an entire season of Solo I's for what I spent in two weekends of road racing. The format is also tailor-made for sharing a ride (and expenses) between two drivers with minimal risk of car damage.

It makes particularly good sense while you're still working to develop the car. It's a helluva lot easier (and cheaper) to get the thing to run for three laps at a time rather than 20. The competition is certainly different, but it's just as intense, the beer's just as cold, and the people are good folks.

BK

You do your own prep, track support, etc - so you are handy with the tools and the car. So find a friend/colleague who you get along with, who has the money but doesn't have the skills or the time (or both). Make a deal where he pays you to prep his car and get it to the track, and fix it when it breaks, so that he offsets your costs to race. More work for you, but less cost and you were going to be working on a car anyway, might was well be someone elses and get paid for it.

The deal can be as simple as use his trailer for both cars, and he pays the gas to the track, all the way to you do an arrive and drive deal, and total maintenance on the car. I know lots of guys who do a version of this, including me.

Brian

Good thoughts. Thanks.

I'm already running free, decent used tires (Thanks, Keith).

Funnily enough, I couldn't possibly tow any slower. My old ambulance is severly top speed limited. :-).

Solo 1 is sounding like a good option, although the wheel-to-wheel competition is a key attraction to my hobby.

I'd have a hard time getting someone to pay me to prep their car. I haven't completed a race since November, 2006, and not because I haven't been killing myself working on my own car.

I'm not sure how I could race any less, since I'm already not racing at all now (Barber's not looking too good...).

Brian's idea is well worth exploring. I myself have a second job bringing in about 6K a year that I consider mine to squander as I please. It means working 5 or 6 hours a week at night for 8 months of the year. I do all my own wrenching as well and sleep at the track etc. I am coming to the realization that each weekend does run at least a grand by the time you factor in broken parts, engine and gearbox wear and tear. tire bill, towing etc. More recently I have started a small business trying to put more cash into the fund. So far only marginally profitable. So six events is realistic with the way I have set myself up.

All options we've done in the past have been mentioned:

Split the costs with someone else (share seat time)
Sleep at the track and camp
Run AvGas or pump gas if possible
Run take-off tires
Race Less Often


One thing that seems pretty lucrative is renting out your car. If they crack it up, then they have to pay for it too! Given that you may not be a full service prep shop charging multiple thousands of dollars, someone may want to rent the car in a minimalistic approach and only pay a fraction of what the prep shops are pulling down.

We've also be confronted with the costs of maintaining where we were at in FC. With the Pinto needing frequent maintenance in order to even be remotely competitive at Nationals, we've opted to spend a little more money on the car and go FE racing. In the long run it will be much more cost effective (hopefully).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carnut169

Race less.

... I write this I'm looking out at the beach...

I've been racing for the past 5 years on my bonus money from work... and for the 1st time in 10+ years w/ the company we did not see one last year, probably won't again this year. Its definately made me seriously consider getting out. .

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Intresting Discussion.... I've had some of the same thoughts as above... A Cariabbian Vacation for family of 3 for a week, costs same as a weekend at track (Including consumables & wear and tear). I've Semi Retired this year from racing, looking to see how much I miss it. So far pain is not too bad. Only done one event, only planning to do 1 or 2 more.

I'm taking the first step in cost reduction, getting rid of my 13 mpg city, tow vech next month. For a couple events per year I'll borrow/rent a truck.

Bonus checks are not comming, raises not in sight, but everyting cost more... I'm definatly scaling back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by racer27

I'm taking the first step in cost reduction, getting rid of my 13 mpg city, tow vech next month. For a couple events per year I'll borrow/rent a truck.

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One of my biggest regrets these days is that I didn't try to sell my 2004 F250 Crew Cab diesel at the beginning of this year (Jan-Feb). They were going on ebay for reasonable prices, but I've been trying to sell it since April and the market is completely saturated with trucks and none are being sold as far as I can tell. I keep lowering the price but no interest yet.

I'm glad I'm not the only one grappling with this problem/decision. :(

I now have the best car I've ever had and can't really (without feeling guilty) afford to race it--BUMMER.

Good luck Russ (and all)--hope you can hang in there...:thumbsup:

DaveK

since you only need to finish two events a year to keep up a regional license.......and you must have a competition license to do test days........do two regionals a year and then all other seat time is test days.

believe me, the guy behind you at a test day is trying just as hard to get around you as on the day it's called a race weekend.....and you're trying just as hard to stay in front too.

This is my first year racing in the SCCA, so I was fortunate to be able to make a tow vehicle decision after gas prices had already started to get out of control. I bought a 16' single axle landscape trailer for about $1600 and tow it behind my 2000 Saab 9-3. Depending on whether the a/c is on or not, I get 18-21 mpg towing the trailer, Swift, two additional sets of tires and wheels, and with everything that I bring to the track stuffed into the back of the Saab. I realize that since I'm just starting out, I probably bring less to the track than most, but so far it has been manageable.

-Phil

Race a cheaper car. It is the competition you thrive on (inferred from your comment regarding re:solo 1), so as long as you have someone to race with....

Your fixed costs--entry fees and fuel getting to and fro will remain the same. Availability of take offs will/should influence your decision.

FV or ITC, ITB can provide good cheap fun....or race a kart--the competition will be intense, and depending on the class, can be much less expensive. You'll come back to full size cars at some point and be better because of it.

Karting is interesting, but I don't think there is much of it in my area.

IT racing is fun. The bang for the buck would probably be comparable to my current race car (conversion F1000).

It might a challenge to find a buyer for my current race car. I may put it in the classified ad section to see if anyone is interested. It's value is already pretty low on the scale for club racing.

I could sell my 24' enclosed trailer for $4,000 or so and buy an open trailer for $1,000-$1,500. That's a little bit of a net gain, but a big step down for it.

Anyone want to buy an ambulance?

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/atta...2&d=1210739340

I see a bright future for arrive and drive. Driver can shed all of the ongoing costs of tow vehicles, car, maintenance, time, etc. The weekend costs itself may cost more, but it's more of a fixed expense and like a vacation it can be planned and budgeted. I realize it's not as simple as I am saying, but may be an option.

I would also encourage folks to look at some of the other clubs like FRCCA and EMRA which offer racing on a level that by design, can save the driver on expenses.

Greg

WAY lower cost of operation and 'almost' the kick of FF. Formula First.

Engine lasts almost forever and at the end of 'forever' $3,600 (at the moment) for an entire new one (or a $950 rebuild).

Broke it parts replacement cost WAY less then FE, FF, FC, FB or any other F.

Haul on mini-trailer (better gas mileage).

Growing class with a pretty decent future. The more F 1st's the show up, the more FV guys will say.. Hey.. he just blew by me like I was standing still.. I'm gonna convert!

ONLY a regional class at the moment (no Nationals entry fees and hassles).

At the moment, excellent resale value compared to acquisition costs. F 1st's in some cases less initial investment then a National level FV (due to engine).

OR.. OR:
Sell FB, keep larger trailer, buy 2 F 1st's (they will fit and you'll still have cash in your pocket), start a rental business to pay for your expense. Even at $1,200 a weekend rental rate (plus damage), not long to pay off and be in the black.

We are on used slicks (thanks Berget) with a too small tow vehicle. Do 4 hour tow time or less races. Need to get OFF that Sunoco 110 and on to AV gas though. Also run that 'other club' with lower entry fees, fewer hassles and more track time.

Boy, am I ever enjoying this thread!;)

One of the big attractions of FB was pump gas. I haven't paid race gas prices since my car was an FC.

FB *should* also be a class with pretty low engine costs. My engine/transmission costs have been pretty low, but that has come with the risk of used ebay engines.

AFAIK, SCCA is the only club that offers formula car racing in the southeast.

Russ, I've rented my DSR probably 6 times since building it over 10 years ago, mostly for test days and drivers school. I essentially provide an arrive and drive weekend. Add up how much time is involved in maintenance you do to get the car ready, how much time you will spend doing the normal chores during the event such as brake bleeding, fueling, cleaning, nut&bolt checks, etc., multiply those hours times a reasonable hourly rate, and add in your consummables (gas, brake pads) and travel costs. Finally, add about 10% of what you figure the car is worth to come up with a final rental figure. On top of that, ask for a 20% crash deposit. MAKE SURE YOU CASH THE CRASH DEPOSIT - a rubber check for this does you no good, and finding out after the fact is obviously worse. Plus, it tells you something about the financial makeup of your customer.

I have had some damage done to my cars, but it has been a (financially) rewarding experience every time. The one downside is that your customer just might drive your car faster than you:ha:

Rent your car out one or two weekends each year, and use the income to supplement your racing budget.

Russ,

Come back up North - when Palmer gets built we can all race cheaper (hope hope hope..)

I will make this statement and let people either agree or disagree. No SCCA class was ever designed for cost containment except FV. I think Formula First has potential but look what happened to F500 and Spec Miata:(

If you are used to racing faster cars, FV and First might seem like a step down. Check with Doug Rocco as he seems to have had fun when he ran FV. Rent one for a regional and see if you like it. You can probably do a rental for about the cost that your car will run for a weekend. Fred Clark in FL can probably answer any questions.

The problem I see is that unless your car is really expensive to race, the car is not the worst part of today's costs. Entry fees (I remember $75 regionals) upgrades to safety equipment and travel expenses are a much higher percentage than before. Note: If your tow vehicle costs more than your race car - change your priorities.

For the car - soft tires and wings cost money - Rand has the right idea of running on vintage tires. Spec tires are really hard to get in the SCCA except on a regional series, My idea is for eveyone to run on spec tires, and chip in for the trophy for the guy who refuses to run them. He gets his big trophy, everyone else has fun....

Find a wealthy partner - trade your experience for being a mentor - been done before and can lead to bigger and better things.

Take a year off. Spend a year training for a marathon, then race the next year. Take a year off and train for a triathalon, then race the next year. Every race I don't do I look at how much money I just made! I might just become a professional non-racer. :D

Okay -thats enough for now.

Have fun.

ChrisZ
Citation FV 21

Russ,

If the FST thing is not making you want to hurl your lunch and most likely you'll be attending the ARRC, there should be about 15+ FST's that you can inspect up close and personal. Everyone has a different idea of what cheap racing is, but we ran an FST for three years and averaged $198 per race for the car and maintainance (tires, fuel, brakes, engine, ect). That number did not include entries, tow fuel, motel, food, beer, ect.

Honestly I think if you can't afford the car maintanence on the car you currently have the best thing you can do is move the car on and step down in class but not in fun factor. Raced IT last year after not having the cash to rebuild my burned up DSR and had as much fun as at anytime in the past or present. The competition is no less fierce and dare I say the folks involved typically are friendlier than the Fcrew.

Another approach would be to sell everything off and race Skip Barber for a few years doing 2 weekends per year. The competition is second to none and if something breaks on the car (clutch, brake pads, etc) you just pull in, they fix it and you race again.

The thing I was planning on doing this year was traveling to all races with another car and specifically bought a bigger trailer for it so we could split gas. This hasn't materialized as my friends had other expenses come up and took the year off racing but next year we will give it a whirl again.

Just my thoughts.

Kart racing http://www.bigsouthseries.com/is available in you area. It is not necessarily a whole lot cheaper.

I'm not sure why want to sell vehicles and trailers if you already own them. I drive an F350 diesel 45 miles each way to work and I still can't make the math work to justify more than a $15k car to replace it at break even. By far the greatest improvment in economy is to take two cars and split the cost. Like you, I don't mind at all sleeping in the trailer when the weather is nice.

There is always Solo II. I did this for 15 years. Great people. It can be a lot of fun in a modified car. It's just a different game.

scott

I spent about 26 years distance running... marathons and the such.
I remember one time, while running an especially tough road race course, i was running much of the route beside a respected, albeit older, marathoner. We were discussing the merits of different race routes we had competed on in the past. He stated one of his philosophies that I have so far never forgotten. "Never make judgement about a given course while you are running on an uphill segment of that course."

I believe a lot of folks at this time, mostly because of the economy, are running on a uphill segment of their racing lives.

The good thing about race cars as compared to polo ponies is that if you quit playing for a while, you don't have to keep feeding the race car every day.

I'm glad I started this thread. The Apexspeed community is great. I was reluctant to post because I'm surely getting a reputation for being a bitcher/moaner/crybaby, but the suggestions are all appreciated.

I autocrossed for a few years when I started out. It was great, but since I've moved on, the two times I returned for Solo II were very frustrating. The time driving the race car was just too brief. I have been considering it again, and if I do, I'll go with a proper attitude (to have max fun).

The renting idea is intriguing, but not possible at this time for me. I would feel too bad if the renter was let down with car troubles. When I go racing there is a lot of finger crossing, hoping that everything will decide to work for that weekend. Eventually it will be reliable, but that takes time to find and fix bugs.

Sharing a trailer could help, but it would take preplanning and a solid commitment by two or more racers. That would be a change for me because my whole racing career has been unplanned up to this point. I like shooting from the hip. :-).

I may start selling off some of my spares package. I hesitate, because it's taken a while to get it built up, but I've carried spare nose boxes and suspension parts to the track for years and never used them.

Thanks, again, everyone. Great discussion.

Russ,

I'm in the same boat. It's not the cost of the car that is the problem. I have an ITB car(bone stock and cheap as possible) and the F1000 and there is no difference in the cost to run if you don't crash. I use free take off tires from the junk pile and run pump gas. Can't get any cheaper than that.

The cost of the race weekend is the tow money, entry fee, motel(wife wont sleep in a tent at the track and I don't have an enclosed trailer), and food. If I could lose the motel and food cost it would help but it will still cost $500-$1000 a weekend depending on how far I go. I can race 4 tracks without traveling more than 5 hours and that is as low as I have been able to get the cost down.

I don't think changing classes is the answer. I damn sure don't think getting a partner is the answer. Been there and it always ends bad. I ran the TT at Nashville this year and it was fun and good for testing but the entry fee was only about $100 less for the double weekend and you still have the tow.

I have asked about renting cars from people and buy the time you put up crash deposit and rental fee you could run alot of races in your own car. I don't see how people think this is a better way to go. Maybe if you can't use a 1/2 wrench or something like that it is your only option I guess.

If there are so many people to rent my car to by all means give me a call. I'll gladly rent it out a few times a year but most people want to rent a car capable of winning and only the top prep shops and a few individuals can supply that. So for all these people to say go rent your car to pay for your racing, I don't think that is as easy as they think it is.

Long story short is there is no way to make traveling races cheaper. Running at the local drag strip or round track is the only way to cut the tow cost and entry fee and that is not and option. All I can do is work overtime as much as possible and save up for two months to run my couple races a year. If I get to the point where I can't do that(which is getting closer every day) I'll have to quit and watch from home on TV.:(

If I could lose the desire to drive I would pay the entry fee and you could tow to the track and race the car and you would have some help also, but the desire to drive is what keeps me going. I may have to run local solo(autocross) races to get some driving in even if it's not fast. I guess it's better than not doing anything.

Hang in there if you can because you ain't the only one try to stay is this racing game with no money.

Jerry

This is a great thread for me, since I'm just diving in. I'm cheap by nature, but understand that $1000/weekend is what this gig is going to cost. I've mentally (and monetarily) prepared myself for a couple of years of racing, but Im naturally looking around for ways to stretch my fledgling racing budget.

Because you are a bitcher/moaner/crybaby just like a lot of us are at this point in time. I think Mike hit it on the head. Now is not a good time financially for most of the country. Economic slowdown, credit crunch, new construction slump, rising rate of foreclosures, falling prices on existing houses, energy and food prices way up, wages and salaries stagnant or falling, massive debt, uh, did I miss anything?

Recently, many have talked about the cost of this sport vs. what else could be had at the same price or less. Guys talk, word gets around and you hear things. Things that make you think twice about the value received. Pretty soon you start thinking about quitting racing. At that point I gotta say, Whoa! What the hell are you thinking? In some circles that's considered blasphemy.

Let me simplify this. Thinking no good for Russ. Russ no think no more. OK?

Here's some advice for a guy who gets paid straight commission on large capital equipment sales to companies that are experiencing strong growth - which means I haven't made squat for well over a year now.

1. Sell the ambulance for whatever you can get, you already have a tow vehicle.
2. Use the F250 as a daily driver, it's paid for, you can't give it away and the daily cost is much cheaper that any senario you can come up with shy of someone giving you an econobox.
3. Continue to "refine" your FB and beg for another license extension.
4. Race only at Road Atlanta.
5. In time, like when yours is saleable, think about a cheaper car. You could have bought 3 or 4 of mine for what you paid for yours by now.
6. Don't make any foolish, I mean, abrupt decisions about anything racing related without first consulting your friends here.

$.02 + 1gr NaCl

...after you do what Tom said, park your FB car until things 'get better' and partner with someone who has a nice IT car (maybe pretty blue one) and split expenses and seat time.

:D:beer:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Bonow

Russ,

......but we ran an FST for three years and averaged $198 per race for the car and maintainance (tires, fuel, brakes, engine, ect). That number did not include entries, tow fuel, motel, food, beer, ect.

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I'll say it again. That's still an impressive number from a person with a lot of experience. That's 10 race weekends for the price of one EBay FC engine or, 4 races for the price of one set of new Hoosier's or, 10 races for the price of a new nose and wings.

Couple that with racing at the 2 nearest tracks (maybe an occasional out of town treat), sleeping at home or camping if possible and eating food you cook (not $10 track burgers) and you're running about $500 to $600 a weekend of racing. That's without the fear of a $3,500 shunt and you're running at NEAR FF speeds.

An FST shunt you say? Entire front beam from brake roter to brake roter $450. The entire body blows off going down the straight and gets run over by 12 cars? If it's the 'right car' less then $1,000. Lose an engine? $950 rebuild (if not too bad) or $3,600 carb to clutch.

I still don't think you can go much more economical then that even in Karts.

Like I said, buy 2 for the value of the FB and you'll still have cash. Then rent one out. If it's running it's working once you have a good basic setup. Few reliability issues to worry about. Just install a tell-tail tach :)

Only thing cheaper:
Volunteer to work corners, tech, or grid when you can't race. Cost is gas money and you get a free lunch. Keeps you near the action.

As one of the folks who suggested changing to a cheaper class, the net cost in changing classes might be the equivalent of a season of racing. I don't know what your car is worth now, but if someone goes from a $20K car to a 10K car, that extra 10K can pay for 8 weekends of racing or more.

A FST might provide for great operating costs, but you still have to buy the car initially. If you can't buy a new one for what you can get for your current car....it doesn't solve your current needs.

Read PF's post again about running and hills. As a novice cyclist getting ready for my first century, I appreciate the analogy.

I've co-owned a car before....not a good idea.

Rentals---never race what you can't afford to wad up in a ball. Especially true when it doesn't belong to you and you don't get to choose when to fix it.

Russ,

Based on what you have posted as far as your "lifestyle" while racing, it doesn't sound like there is a way to drastically reduce your expenses related to racing, at least while staying within the constraints of SCCA.

My recommendation would parallel many others and say to park the car for a season or two, chip away on the prep and engineering items on the car so that when you have saved enough to run a season the car is ready to give you maximum track time value

I cannot say what it is like in your Division, but in the NP Division not racing for a season or two is not a problem from a licensing standpoint. When you are ready to return you simply submit your application to the Division Licensing Chief and he/she will approve and forward it on to National. I was off for ten years and when I returned I did have to race on a Novice permit for two races, but that was done in one double weekend. You can zero in on the facts regarding this issue by calling your Divisional Licensing Chief and discussing it.

In the mean time, get out on a flag stand or safety crew and enjoy the racing from a different vantage point. You can probably car pool to and from with fellow workers and even share their camp site for a serious reduction in the out of pocket expenses associated with being at the races and keeping your head in the game.


When you have saved enough scratch and are ready for some racing, run as local as possible and run a partial schedule.

Stay here on the boards watching for great deals on give away tires and such, all the while giving your sage advice to newbie’s that need your help.


Good luck.

WoW,

This thread is a real reality check. When I first read it, I thought of the towel with respect to boxers coaches throwing it into the ring when the fighter is hurt and can't muster what it takes to go on.

I confronted my boss about it and he gave it to me right between the eyes.

I was told that if a person is passionate enough about something then they will get off their ass and muster every ounce of "entrepreneurial fortitude", cool phrase, and get aggressive. He said go out and get it, don't wait for it. He said if you don't have profitable enough work, then create the work, prioritize, plan, then execute. He said the damn government is not going to provide you with a bailout so it is up to you to make it happen. Champion your way though obstacles or quit, but only champions win at racing.

Something that I also found interesting, he said that business ventures that cut, cut, cut, during down turns are loosing ventures, in contrast, business ventures with a champion at the helm, will will enact diversification and expansion when things look bleak. He told me to watch for the garage sales, buy the assets for pennies on the dollar, and then turn the gain into a position of strength to fuel growth and diversification.

I was expecting some compassion, but there was none. I guess some people are cut out to be employees and others employers, it is definitely a mindset.

At the same time, I remember a line from the movie "The Man from Snowy River". "Don't throw effort after foolishness"

Good luck guys
Todd
"watching for Garage Sale."

Well Racer Russ, fellow racer & neighbor, have we read anything so far that we hadn't already talked about? Sounds like we just have to take the bad times with the good & be optimistic about our economic future. These things come & go in cycles!;) -:ha:

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Originally Posted by formulasuper

Well Racer Russ, fellow racer & neighbor, have we read anything so far that we hadn't already talked about? Sounds like we just have to take the bad times with the good & be optimistic about our economic future. These things come & go in cycles!;) -:ha:

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Most everything mentioned has been considered, but that doesn't mean I haven't gotten a lot out of this discussion.

Probably the best plan for me is to sit out for a while and not spend any money. It's just hard to come to terms with that decision after working on a car for 2 years and having it ready to go. I've already pretty much sat out the past two years.

I hope my posts haven't come across as someone looking for sympathy. I'm not at all. I'm a big believer in supply & demand. As long as there are enough people able to spend enough money to go racing, there's no reason for anyone to reduce their prices. And I think people who have worked hard, made good decisions and managed their lives and finances well deserve the rewards that come with that.

peanut butter and jelly
or
a person could live perhaps as long as six weeks on only pop tarts and water
or...
shoot me......
no beer

I did like Tom's idea about ditching the ambulance... but buy a cheap Civic with the money. Keep the truck (as if you had a choice), and while your "waiting it out" you won't be spending all of your extra dough on diesel fuel to commute.

I find that sometimes, if you call out for it, money will come. Think about more efficient cooling as an example...;) How many of those refridgerated buildings are there?

After years of formula car roadracing I think my favorite driving experience is driving a formula Atlantic car at Mid-Ohio, but the bad news is that that experience will cost about $ 7500 per weekend. The good news is that you can duplicate 95% of that Atlantic experience for about 5% of the cost with a 125 shifter kart at any number of kart tracks in your area( Jacksonville, Ocalla?) and any SCCA track you have ever driven. $35 entry fees, much tougher than SCCA competition, tire sets for $170. I run a 125 stock moto shifter and a 125 TAG kart at Newcastle Indiana and logged over 3000 track miles last year and spent less than $5000. Yet when I drove a s2000 a couple of times last year I was up to speed right away, in fact after the shifter it seemed to me that I could get out and run faster that the s2 went! I regularly see SCCA veterans and current pro drivers at the kart track and they laugh at the cost comparison, bang for the buck it is not even close. $ 3k will get you a good used 125 shifter(like mine!) and you can put everything in the back of your truck, after selling your trailer and racecar you could race every weekend for the next decade! btw I will give any SCCA licence holder a free test in my shifter at Newcastle, just ask, you will be impressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paddy O'Brien

After years of formula car roadracing I think my favorite driving experience is driving a formula Atlantic car at Mid-Ohio, but the bad news is that that experience will cost about $ 7500 per weekend. The good news is that you can duplicate 95% of that Atlantic experience for about 5% of the cost with a 125 shifter kart at any number of kart tracks in your area( Jacksonville, Ocalla?) and any SCCA track you have ever driven. $35 entry fees, much tougher than SCCA competition, tire sets for $170. I run a 125 stock moto shifter and a 125 TAG kart at Newcastle Indiana and logged over 3000 track miles last year and spent less than $5000. Yet when I drove a s2000 a couple of times last year I was up to speed right away, in fact after the shifter it seemed to me that I could get out and run faster that the s2 went! I regularly see SCCA veterans and current pro drivers at the kart track and they laugh at the cost comparison, bang for the buck it is not even close. $ 3k will get you a good used 125 shifter(like mine!) and you can put everything in the back of your truck, after selling your trailer and racecar you could race every weekend for the next decade! btw I will give any SCCA licence holder a free test in my shifter at Newcastle, just ask, you will be impressed.

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Hey Paddy, I checked your profile to see how old you are but it doesn't say. Russ, myself & a few others are too old to be breaking any bones because it takes them way too long to heal at this age. We talked about kart racing but decided there's not enough protection with that kind of motor missile. I don't take my Suzuki GSXR750 out on a track anymore for the same reason.:o

Mr. Super, I am old, officially 50-something now and part of the reason I kart is for the cardio-workout. In the winter I go to the gym daily to run + weights and in summer I kart and do some rowing to keep in shape, but skip the gym. . I used to race street races in karts and those tracks can be very bumpy and tough on us old guys backs as the kart gets air on the crown of the road at the intersections when you hit them at 100mp! Most of the new tracks that are being built like Newcastle are glass smooth and fairly long, over 1mile, with lots of elevation changes. The weekly regional KRA series at Newcastle has a stock moto shifter class that gets mixed with the regular shifters and I would guess the average age is over 40 and almost every driver came from cars, sprints midget, SCCA etc, but they now "see the light" The fast young kids tend to race in the ICC(race engine) 125 shifters and senior 125 TAG classes.

I agree that shifter karts are probably the best kick per dollar & I actually own one but don't race it in competition. I feel safer in my Ralt monocoque chassis & with the Busa engine it's pretty much like driving a giant shifter kart!

Road racing 125 shifters was costing me about $1k per weekend. As far as safety goes, in one year of racing cars I have seen more guys badly hurt than in 8 years of road racing shifter karts. Stock 125 class is definitely the way to go for a more economical and reliable package.

scott

Hold on for a little while.

I'm working on being able to supply a diesel substitute (not vegi based) that will reduce your towing fuel costs by at least 40%.

Does not need any special handling or separate tanks nor (start on reg diesel, switch, run for a few minutes before stopping) techniques.

May not help Sean/Scott, though, because I think they have gassers.

I gotta prove it in my f350 first before I start peddling it. It's my risk and responsibility if it screws up my diesel, but another story if it screws up yours. I expect results by the middle of Sept. (either good or bad)

I will keep you informed.

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I have thought seriously about going back to Solo I for a while (since Jan). Hence the FV projects. & open trailer. Gotta keep the F350 though, I may be in the property rehab business in a few months.

Maybe offer arrive/drive service in FV also??

I am surprised no one mentions the FRCCA in the Northeast. We run spec tires so one set a year, fixed gear ratios, very restrictive engine rules and lot's of seat time - up to 2 hours/day. Entry fees run ~ $200/day. Aside from fuel and travel expenses the expenditure is minimal. And the cars are generally older but not "vintage" FF so purchase price is about equivalent to an engine/trans cost. I went back racing this year after 20 year hiatus but after attending one SCCA weekend and one FRCCA weekend, for a Formula car, it's a no-brainer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paddy O'Brien

Mr. Super, I am old, officially 50-something now and part of the reason I kart is for the cardio-workout. In the winter I go to the gym daily to run + weights and in summer I kart and do some rowing to keep in shape, but skip the gym. . I used to race street races in karts and those tracks can be very bumpy and tough on us old guys backs as the kart gets air on the crown of the road at the intersections when you hit them at 100mp! Most of the new tracks that are being built like Newcastle are glass smooth and fairly long, over 1mile, with lots of elevation changes. The weekly regional KRA series at Newcastle has a stock moto shifter class that gets mixed with the regular shifters and I would guess the average age is over 40 and almost every driver came from cars, sprints midget, SCCA etc, but they now "see the light" The fast young kids tend to race in the ICC(race engine) 125 shifters and senior 125 TAG classes.

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I've been curious about shifter karts lately, but have heard they cost more than a racecar to run. What is a stock moto shifter? Is it the honda cr125 in stock form? How long do they last? Cost? Can you put one on most kart chassis? Sorry for all the questons.

Both IKF and WKA have specifications for the Stock 125 class. Both based on CR125 engine, I believe 99 model. Engine kits can be had from Honda brand new in the $2k range maybe less. Difference in clubs will tend to be pipe allowed, reeds or reed block, carb, and tires. You can check their sites for rules. Well tuned stock 125 will make 36hp. You can safely run 3 or 4 race weekends on a piston and ring. Some guys run all season although I would not recommend. You must buy jets and some kind of air density guage. If you road race a kart, you must keep it jetted correctly or you will stick the motor. The modified 125 engines will make about 42hp and you will change rings between races, pistons after every weekend at least, and you will damage the engine on a regular basis due to detonation, and siezures.

As far as chassis goes. It is generally best to find a local supplier and buy the brand that is locally supported for parts. There must be at least 50 different brands, so you have to try and find one of the major brands with good parts support. In Texas, most guys are runnig the Intrepid chassis as it is reasonably priced, well built, good brakes, and parts are readily available and cheap.

As far as used karts, be very careful.
New package will run $6-$8k
Good used $4500 - $5500
Bad used $3000-$3500

scott

I've thought about getting into karting too. My biggest reason was that my 4 year old wants a kart and it sounds like a really cool father/son weekend! But after looking at Scott's costs above and the amount of work required for the engines, it sounds like it would take too much time aways from my full-size race cars. Time in the garage is already minimal due to wife's needs and caring for the 5 month old!

But if anyone has a cheap kit kart with a 50 cc comer, let me know!

russ

put a stacker in your trailer, use your pick up to tow. I store, work on and transport cars for friends who have the extra money but dont want the extra work. I also run a kart for cheap seat time so that when i get in my car i am still comfotable and up to speed.

good luck, im dealing with the same decions as many of us are in the same boat

len