Facts about Zetec

I don't want to upset anybody, but some of you have not got the facts correct. I am just going to list some numbers and leave it with you:

Mileage: 5,00 to 10,000 Pro Series Champion 4,700 miles on pole for one race and won both rounds at Rd. Atlanta....some say this track has something to do with power. Do the math 3 to 4 National Seasons.

Van Diemens - that can convert '98-'04 - 237
Cost of Engine: $9,950.00
Cost of Kit: $5,300.00
Blow Ups: Zero
Rebuild: $3,500.00 fixed
Electronics: Pectel $2,400 M.B.E $800 - $1,000

Crossover to Pro Series: No problem 2 race exemption.

Availability: 500+ at Ford Racing alone, produced here until the end of '04, Europe until '06, parts available until 2012, from Ford aftermarket forever - 3.2 million worldwide.

Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare.

Other Manufacturers: Don't bother, been there done that, besides if you don't like the conversion cost now you definately won't be happy if you see one for another engine.

Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.

Other Manufacturers: I am encouraging their participation, I would love to see Citation, Carbir, Piper and Stohr fit Zetecs. There is a market for new Zetecs not Pinto chassis, we need some variety.

Who said anything about the Zetec Series dumping the engine or changing the chassis. Where do you guys get this stuff!

Unless I've missed something, why is anyone afraid of something that has proven itself for two years to be a suitable replacement for something that needs to be replaced.

What is the cost of a new Pinto? And how long to get one?

i don't think it's fair to make a judgement without some experience of the issues. Having been on both sides, and for over twenty years with Pinto, all I know is what I see. Much more reliability and performance per dollar with 80% less maintenance.

With the Zetec based Formula you have the fastest, safest and most cost effective racing tool for under $40,000.00

Anybody wants to talk, call me. Thanks, Jon Baytos

Office: 727-522-7544
Cell: 727-744-5255
Home: 727-363-3279

ya gotta love a guy like jon. gives you the facts and ALL his phone numbers if you've got questions.

mark d

Gee..that was like a breath of fresh air!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Cape Motorsports:
I don't want to upset anybody, but some of you have not got the facts correct. I am just going to list some numbers and leave it with you:
<snip>

Availability: 500+ at Ford Racing alone, produced here until the end of '04, Europe until '06, parts available until 2012, from Ford aftermarket forever - 3.2 million worldwide.

Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare. <snip>

Thanks, Jon Baytos

Office: 727-522-7544
Cell: 727-744-5255
Home: 727-363-3279

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Mr Baytos,
Respectfully, I must disagree with you on these two items:

One...The only Zetec engine currently available in the United States is the limited issue SVT Zetec installed in the Ford Focus. Ford will drop it's use after 2004 altogether. I do not have specific information about the Zetec's future use in other parts of the world. However, I must point out that the Duratec in it's three displacements...1.8, 2.0 and 2.3 liter is already found in more Ford and Mazda vehicles than the Zetec ever was. In addition, Ford and it's subsidiary companies like Volvo will continue to introduce this engine into even more vehicles in the coming years. Worldwide production is slated to be about one and a quarter million Duratecs annually with over three hundred thousand assembled in Dearborn, Michigan by American workers.

Two...Your assessment of the performance potential of the Duratec engine versus the Zetec is incorrect. Both engines perform well in a stock configuration but the Zetec requires extensive modification and/or major parts replacement including the block and cylinder head if it is pushed beyond it's reliable limits of about 300 h.p. The all-aluminum Duratec engine weighs about 45 pounds less than the Zetec and does not require replacement of the block and head to make high horsepower numbers. In fact at least one engine builder ( Circle Performance, http://www.circleperformance.com ) has easily exceeded 330 h.p. with a change of connecting rods, higher compression 14-1 forged pistons and a short list of modifications on a stock OEM 2.3 Ford Ranger Duratec engine. The Sports 2000 group is quite succesful using their stock Duratec 2.0 liter engine in competition, www.sports2000.co.uk/pro_series_engine.htm .
Minister Racing, http://www.minister-power.com , has recently won several prestigious endurance races with their Duratecs. Even on the drag race scene a Mazda version Duratec is capable of high boosted horsepower with a stock block and cylinder head, http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/news/110601.html

Why does this engine have such great potential? The Duratec is based on a Cosworth-inspired race design and was believed to be intended for use in F-1 competition. Ford "found" the design when they purchased a controlling interest in Cosworth and allowed Mazda to perfect the manufacturing processes. However, the inherent strength of the engine design...skirted block, gerotor oil pump, girdled crankshaft main caps, cross-flow pentroof head, etc. was maintained. A multitude of aftermarket companies are manufacturing improved components specifically designed for racing. Even Cosworth America plans to offer a kit of aftermarket improvements in the Spring of 2004.

Perhaps the Duratec engine is not the best choice for installation into some racing applications but it is incorrect to say that it is not as good as a Zetec.

With regard,
Gerry Dedonis
dedonis@kans.com
Kansas Racing Products Inc.
http://www.kansasracingproducts.com

Hi John,
Would you elaborate on gearbox costs in Zetec's? I understand that many teams have experienced annual gearbox costs matching or exceeding their previous Pinto rebuild costs. Since I do not want to proliferate false rumors I thought I'd ask you directly. Specifically how much more maintenance is required, what service life are you experiencing with components, how often have you seen failures.

Gerry, all, ,,

This Duratec discussion is missing a few imortant points.

First no one is talking about a 300 hp engine, ..
but the most important fact is it does not fit the current chassis. To make it fit would require a new bellhousing/ trans adaptor, ( big $$$) input shaft, .. headers, .. rework of motor mounts and rear chassis,,.. the costs to convert any current chassis to anything BUT a Zetec would be silly.

Curtis

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Originally posted by Curtis Boggs:
Gerry, all, ,,

This Duratec discussion is missing a few important points.

First no one is talking about a 300 hp engine, ..
but the most important fact is it does not fit the current chassis. To make it fit would require a new bellhousing/ trans adaptor, ( big $$$) input shaft, .. headers, .. rework of motor mounts and rear chassis,,.. the costs to convert any current chassis to anything BUT a Zetec would be silly.

Curtis

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I do agree that a Zetec engine might be the best choice for many race applications. My point of contention with Jon had to do more with his assessment of the Duratec being inferior to the Zetec engine. I simply pointed out that a Duratec has the ability to serve in it's stock capacity AND as a performance engine requiring few modifications. A Zetec has but one reasonably priced option (emphasis on reasonably) and that being in it's stock internal configuration. Sizewise, the Zetec and Duratec engines are very close in overall dimensions. The Duratec's intake and exhaust are configured same as the 2.0 Pinto engine. The Zetec is the opposite. Of course the issue too that the Zetec is going to be discontinued from production where as the Durated is at the beginning of it's life cycle and is already accepted in the new SCCA Sport and Formula class.

Please notice in the F2000 Off-Topic Forum several photos of a Carbir chassis fitted with a Duratec 2.0 liter.

There is at least one company making an adapter to fit a Duratec oe Zetec engine to an Mk8 gearbox. This same company also makes carbureted conversions and stand-alone ignition systems for the Zetec, Duratec and GM-Olds Quad 4. Visit with John Ehrlich at Altech Precision in Colorado or go to his website at http://www.quad4rods.com

I imagine John would be willing to talk about other ways to adapt a Duratec to the current chassis.

Thank you!
Gerry Dedonis

Please amend my last post to include an adapter to mate the Duratec to an Mk8 and Mk9 gearbox.
Regards,'
Gerry

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Originally posted by Gerry Dedonis:
Please amend my last post to include an adapter to mate the Duratec to an Mk8 and Mk9 gearbox.
Regards,'
Gerry

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99% of the cars use LD200 gearbox's.

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99% of the cars use LD200 gearbox's. [/QB][/QUOTE]

OK then, talk to John Ehrlich to see if he can adapt the Duratec to the LD200 box or provide a new casting altogether.

Scott, thanks for pointing out this fact. I'm still on the learning curve with road racing. :D :D :D
Regards,
Gerry Dedonis

A little birdie told me that ICP is building a Citation/Zetec right now. Was that birdie telling the truth Richard?

i'm not extremely knowledgeable about pintos, zetecs or duratecs but i have picked up a few things about ld200s.

The talk of a 300hp duratec seems kinds of silly. If my memory serves me correctly a top national pinto makes about 150hp. At this HP level guys seems to be popping gears and breaking stuff pretty often. So why would anyone ever think putting a 300hp engine in front of an LD200 is a good reliable combination?

Nobody is talking about putting a 300 HP Duratec in.
As I heard many times in school as a youth - "let's focus now class"

Happy Holidays [img]graemlins/santa.gif[/img]

Chris
ck-r.com

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Originally posted by HazelNut:
i'm not extremely knowledgeable about pintos, zetecs or duratecs but i have picked up a few things about ld200s.

The talk of a 300hp duratec seems kinds of silly. If my memory serves me correctly a top national pinto makes about 150hp. At this HP level guys seems to be popping gears and breaking stuff pretty often. So why would anyone ever think putting a 300hp engine in front of an LD200 is a good reliable combination?

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A bit of clarification regarding a 300+ h.p. Duratec mentioned by Curtis Boggs. One Duratec engine builder, Circle Performance, has adapted an engine for competition in circle-track midgets. I don't believe Curtis was advocating a 300 h.p. engine as a replacement for formula competition but it is very beneficial to know that an engine offered in a street vehicle has the affordable potential to serve in several capacities. The OEM Zetec engine does not unless the aftermarket block and cylinder head is utilized for a high hp application.

Hope this clears the issue.
Thanks and regards,
Gerry Dedonis

Gerry-

We get it.. you like the duratec. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I don't think Mr. Baytos downplayed the performance of the duratec.. it is what is used in the FSCCA car. I believe his statement was ONLY intended for fitment in a FC and F2000 chassis... nothing more.

The focus engine (zetec) is the one being used most for the midgets, even having their own turn-key, spec engine class, using the zetec powerplant. I believe they get over 200hp with them reliably.

At any rate - I don't believe this needs to become a duratec versus zetec pissing match...
I agree with anyone who wants to see more manufacturers in F2000's.... Carbir, Mygale, Swift, Stohr, Piper, Citation, Taatus.... that was fun when there were more than 2 manufacturers duking it out.

MM
The talk of gearboxes though is very interesting.

Marc,
I believe the change to the 8 & 10" wheel had a lot to do with the gear breakage. I don't think that was an issue in 02 when they first introduced the Zetec with the smaller (FC) wheel tire combination.
I have not experienced any problems, but I only have about 2000 miles on it. I wouldn't expect any more than I had with my Pinto if I stay on the smaller wheels.

DOH!!! my bad.

don't know how a double post got in there, ..

sorry

Curtis

[size="1"][ December 25, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]

[quote]Originally posted by Gerry Dedonis:
[qb]

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A bit of clarification regarding a 300+ h.p. Duratec mentioned by Curtis Boggs.
Gerry Dedonis

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Gerry,

Ummm,, .. I think we do need to clear things up YOU are the person who brought up 300 + HP Duratecs, .. NOT ME !!!!!!! :mad:

I am NOT in favor of the Duratec and never said anything of the sort! What I AM in favor of is using the fully tested Zetec package in a chassis that it bolts into and has proven reliable for our racing series.

Gerry, .. we all know you like the Duratec, ..

The cost to convert any of our formula cars to Duratec would be silly, .. and bringing it into this discussion is also silly, .. so don't muddy the waters with sales attempts!

Curtis

[size="1"][ December 25, 2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]

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Duratec: Not an option, won't fit, don't want it to, not as good as Zetec, have both, don't compare.

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Hey Mr. Beytos brought it up and Gerry just told you the facts. I've sat here and wondered why we are so enamered with the Ztec when Ford isn't. Gerry also gave us information on getting the Duratec to mate up to our gearboxes. They seem to be very happy with the Duratec in England in the Sports racers and if you think 15k to convert isn't silly money Curtis I want to come work for you. Just becuase Mr. Baytos says the Ztec is the "only" power plant that will work in our cars doesn't make it so.

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Chassis Stability: We are not planning on any changes until '06, we are working on something with a V-8, but if the Zetec owners group want something different we will look at it.

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I heard this rumor over a year ago and I don't call two more years much stability. FC is a very stable class and I fear that if we let this genie out of the bottle we'll never get it back in. I believe that we will at some point need to look at other power plants and in the other thread I laid out my feelings.

Sorry Michael,

I get a little angry when some one attributes a quote to me, .. that in fact they them selves made.

The cost of a new bell housing / trans adaptor to get the Duratec in the car would add another $2,000 to $3,000 to the conversion, .. .. place on top of that the new body work, etc.

All these things exsist for the Zetec and the Zetec will bolt up to the pinto trans adaptor and use the same input shaft.

why use something else when all the work is done and it's proven?

Curtis

Two reasons why the Duratec might be a better choice.

Ford is into this motor for the long haul

Badged as Mazda we could get contingency money. Something Ford doesn't offer club racers.

I am still leaning on the "extend the life of the Pinto by using better rod/piston and let the pro guys have their own deal" side of this. But and this is J-Lo sized but I do believe that at some point in the evolution of FC a new motor will have to replace the Pinto. Right now with only 70-80 Ztec cars in the entire country and maybe 6-12 Pinto cars willing to convert I can't see why we are letting this format mold our class. Pinto powered FC's have been and still are some of the quickest (lap times) cars in the SCCA. They are good looking pure racing cars and the current format works.

Kodiak Motorsports\Daryle Redlin is fitting a Zetec engine to his FF2000 chassis as we speak. With a slightly different front motor mount, the Pinto motor and Zetec seem to be interchangable. Please add Kodiak to the chassis manufacturers that see this as a viable series.

Also, Kodiak wheels meet all of the Zetec series wheel specs and are coming on board this year.

Curtis, my sincere apology to you regarding the mention of a modified 300+ h.p. Duratec engine used in another form of racing.

In it's stock configuration, a Duratec and Zetec are closely matched in power output. The main differences are:

One...the overall weight, 200 pounds for a Duratec versus 245 pounds for the Zetec.
Two...the location of the intake and exhaust ports.
Three...the stock bellhousing bolt pattern.
Four...the Zetec is at it's end of production and the Duratec is about five years old.
Five...the Zetec requires extensive modification and major parts replacement for high horsepower output. The Duratec can retain it's stock block, head and perhaps it's crankshaft.

The greater the versatility of an engine then the greater the opportunity that it can be used in a variety of racing classes. BrooksHall mentioned the possible award as contingency money. The Duratec is a globally produced engine that is or will be installed into many different brands of cars and trucks. Why wouldn't Mazda, Ford or Volvo want the recogition? They sure won't provide a nickel's worth to the dying Zetec. Even the competitors in USAC's Ford Focus Zetec Midget Series using an internally stock 180 h.p. Zetec don't get a break from Ford. Any contingency money or purse is paid by the Ford dealer's association and not Ford Motor Company. I wonder how they can continue to call themselves Focus Zetec Midgets when the Focus itself no longer has a Zetec engine? Yep, it's been replaced by the Duratec.

Best regards,
Gerry Dedonis

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this issue, so I invite everyone to comment about this musing>

Regarding argument over the production #'s and production lifespan of either the Zetec or Duratech and that relationship to SCCA use: Hasn't production of both of these engines already surpassed the production #'s of the 2.0 Pinto motor?....and we're still using Pintos after 30 yrs.
IF my admittedly "shot from the hip" estimates are correct, then isn't the "production #/life argument" moot?

Just wondering if anyone knows the real #'s for 2.0 Pintos to corroborate my point.

Bruce Allison