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SCCA makes F1000s run with significantly faster Atlantics, which can be kinda discouraging. There are threads here about the politics of that decision and the consequences. The other formulas you mention get their own run groups at a lot of events, and can have racing almost as competitive as SRF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
As far as performance goes, you can scare yourself in any modern formula car and a few seconds a lap one way or the other that a class car is capable of really isn't what racing is about. If you are the only guy that shows up with an F1000 or an Atlantic car, you're not racing against anyone except yourself. There is nothing cheap about F1000, it is for the most part a class with very few cars anywhere. To be really competitive, you will need professional built motors. If you want to race with the diehard F1000 guys, be prepared to open your wallet. FF & FC are the classes that have had the most cars produced by various professional builders and you'll generally have someone to race with almost anywhere in the country. Additionally, there is a tremendous wealth of easily available technical information for both classes that is shared on this website. Your mileage may vary but I'd suggest actually going to meet some folks racing FC and you'll see the bang for the buck in a very cool winged formula car...Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
Like others said, it's where the people are. There are some extremely fast and talented FC drivers in my area. That gives me a challenge, people to look up to, and a lot of room to grow without having to spend a mega budget traveling across the country. Particularly for someone new to the sport. I'd feel pretty silly if I was driving around alone in a super fast car no one else has when my skill level is back of the pack field filler in the class that actually has competition. If F1000 was still a faster, cheaper FC like when it started out maybe it would have taken over but that is not the direction it went.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
Brad,
As someone that races a lot at BIR, I have never seen an F1000 there. Maybe I missed it but I highly doubt there were 2, making it a race. I have not seen one at Blackhawk lately either but I don't go there but once a year. It's no longer a majors class. Not that that's a show stopper but it is a popularity indicator. Read the recent "Runoffs" thread here on Apexspeed to learn of the F1000 history and current state. The Midwest was the home of the movement to create F1000. It just did not pan out as many felt it would.
They are extremely cool cars, no doubt. A thrill to drive given their performance. But, racing someone is likely very region determined. Many classes have "hotbeds" of action. I think there is a strong F1000 contingent on the west coast. Some are wonderfully built conversions. All done a bit differently. In your original post you mentioned parts availability. No purpose built SCCA class race car has parts on the Summit Racing or Jeggs web sites. I was not sure what you meant by that comment. Expectations vary.
Jim
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...hlight=runoffs
As the owner of a Sports Racer with 1L Bike engine, you will have to learn to do everything yourself unless you live near some specialty race shop who works on bike powered cars. No car shop will work on it and no bike shop will work on it because neither group wants to fool with it. It seems bike powered cars are all semi-homemade aside from a Radical. Parts are not interchangeable, people mix and match motorcycle parts from different years. Wiring is not standard, fittings are not standard, noting is standard. For example, I have a Titan FF converted SR powered by a 2002 R1 motor (1 Liter) So I thought I had a motor issue and bought a low mile 2003 R1 off a motorcycle that wrecked. I put that motor in and was swapping out the motors. Well, I found out that there was a mix of 1998-2001 parts on the old motor when I dropped in the other motor and some things didn't look right. Yes my old motor was a 2002 but I had to put the older parts because it fit the chassis.
There was just a Stohr that sold on BaT for 20k this weekend. It had the same motor, 2002 R1. I could tell in the photos that it also had the same mix of motor parts on my motor. It was converted back to carb and had the 1998-01thermostat housing, etc. I had to find all this out myself with hours of time working on my car. I know my engine and car inside out now. This isn't a bad thing because it allowed to get a car with a certain lower budget. Bike engines change year to year. FC FF engines are all the same.
Long story about the motor swap which was not needed but I learned a ton. But that's my point. I couldn't find anyone to look at my bike/car to help me with diagnosing what was wrong. So I tore everything down to finally figure out there was a bolt broken to the rear wheel housing next to the sprocket that made me think I had a transmission problem. When my second motor started doing the same thing as my first motor under high rpms I finally found the problem which was very simple to fix. Now I have two good motors, did my first engine swap, and know a lot about bike powered cars. I just want you to know what you are getting into with a bike powered car. The performance is truly awesome.
And I seriously considered FF or FC, however, I wanted a track day car so I needed fenders. I wasn't racing so that was not a factor. I am currently selling my car but just because i got another car. The performance per dollar is amazing.
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Originally Posted by lowside67
I would have loved that if I could have arranged it. That said, the car had some extras and the purchase price wasn’t too bad. Win some, lose some.Quote:
Originally Posted by lowside67
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimH
Glad to hear. This was my first used race car purchase, and since it was a decent chunk of the purchase price, I was hoping it wasn’t a bad faith sale. If that’s fairly normal for race cars, then it most likely wasn’t. Also, that was using shop labor. It would have been a fair amount cheaper if I had the time and experience to do the work myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
Thanks, and glad to help!Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
I use iRacing mostly, and the large community and future benefit of lots of races with real people are the biggest reasons. I can google for decent setups, track guides, and best lap times. Any/all of them seem to be at least a bit of a pain to get set up. RFactor 2 steering feel is better, but in other ways seems to feel more… arcadey? AC and all the others have pros and cons, but I wanted to avoid modding and other projects.
IRacing and a new sim rig just in general will take time to get set up to your liking, but I found it fairly easy to google issues and work through it all. I’m sure you’ll have no real trouble figuring it out. Frustration sure but trouble probably not.
I’m glad to hear you *can* stretch your budget but may choose not to. You’re in a far better position that way. Unfortunately, unless you go full arrive and drive, this hobby does tend to demand a fair bit of time.
On FB/F1000 vs FC/FF, a few things, most of which were assumptions. I guess a big question that should be asked to start is are you wanting to race as in looking for competition, or are you wanting to race as in get out there lapping for fun and share the track with a run group and timing? If the latter, get a fast, sexy-to-you car, and if the former, identify the high participation classes and pick a car that fits one of those classes.
FF is super cheap to run and great to learn on. I understand the Fit motors are bomb proof. I hear parallels with SRF - slow but very cheap fun. As prototypes, SRFs can also be run at events that formula cars might not be welcomed to. And I agree - they’re not the prettiest car. You expressed that you want to control the costs, so long rebuild intervals on fairly inexpensive components in cars with long term large run groups seem like a great recommendation.
Relative to FF/SRF, FC is a bit faster, sexier, often cheaper to get a car for, and usually has a decent sized run group. Pretty safe bet and usually you can run in a pack with others which is fun. If you have a good sized group near you it might just be the ticket.
FA is cool but definitely not cheap.
I liked the idea of FB really well due to the sound and good cost to performance ratio. The class had an open rulebook and eventually fields became too small. They were merged into a faster class and now a standard FB isn’t competitive anywhere. So if you like the idea of the class, you can run it behind the fast guys or attach a prototype body to the car and now you have a P1/P2 car. I also understand the MC engines, while cheap, didn’t offer a long service life, and drivers broke them pretty often too. Here’s a link to some discussions about the class, and it more or less just dies off. So the cars are cool but the class is looking like a dead end.
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...of-F1000/page5
If you’re going to run in a class of one anyway, FB might be fine. But you will want to also consider old Radicals, CN/VdeV cars, FM/PFM, and the whole host of vintage race cars, domestic and out of Europe as well. Radicals are pretty well known. The CN cars ran Honda K motors for a long time and seemed to be fairly inexpensive to run for their performance level. Good luck getting parts though! The original FM cars are ugly but I understand they get some love as they have a reputation for being cheap to run tanks that are fun to drive. Sounds great really. PFM has a lot of upgrades but because of that it’s not so cheap. And you can find a whole lot of cool cars out of dead race series in the US and Europe if you’re comfortable supporting one. Driving one always sounds like a fun idea. Servicing and supporting it, well, less so!
I really appreciate everyone that took the time to respond.
I kind of narrowed in on the F1000/P2 class because I like the cars so much. But I'm reconsidering that idea based on all your feedback. I really just want to get out on the track and run with a group of somewhat similar cars. Probably the best thing I did was look at some race results to see what type of cars were running at Brainerd and Road America. There doesn't seem to be an overwhelming group of any similar cars with the possible exception of FC. I'm sure in other parts of the country once class may be really dominant but it looks like kind of a mixed bag at these two tracks.
I agree that it would be really nice to have a bunch of cars in the same class that are theoretically capable of equal performance to race against. More importantly it would give me some guys to learn about the car from.
I can tell from a lot of the responses that you guys are taking the competition a little more seriously than I plan to. I'm not going to double my initial investment chasing a podium. I just want to go out and have fun a couple times a year. I'll spend money to make it reliable and safe but I'm old and probably just an average driver at this point anyway (or any point in my life for that matter).
Half the fun of this is tinkering with the car although it's not particularly good for my marriage! I'll have a lot of time for reading and learning on here since I broke the news to my wife last night that I'm buying a racecar and won't be having sex for the new couple of months.
I reviewed some of the results from Brainerd and RA for the type of cars running. Based on some of your feedback and this I'm leaning towards a FC car. If anyone sees a great deal on a good FC car let me know. I also haven't given up on my P2 car dream either!
Thanks,
Brad
Multitask. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
There are a handful of Van Diemen LSR conversions in P2 that check all the boxes of what you're looking for.
That said, FC fields seem to be growing in the Midwest, and I think with the Runoffs at Road America next two years that we'll see bigger fields across the board. There's a nice core group of maybe 8-10 FC guys in WI/IL that come out to most of the Blackhawk/RA events. Might be a bit of a haul for you from Minnesota, but the GLC FC series runs in the Midwest, primarily at the lower Michigan tracks.
Sequentials are legal in FC with a weight penalty, but I don't know of any cars besides the spec-line USF2000 cars that have them. Don't let the H pattern deter you.
Brad,
Your last post clears up what you're looking to do. Don't leave out Blackhawk Farms on your list of tracks. It's a blast (no super long straights to "rest") and better for the family/friends as you come by many more times a race compared to RA. Shorter track. Nice facility too. Basically the same distance from the Twin Cities as RA. There is a race there on October 7-8. Register on MotorsportReg and you can see the entries and the schedule, etc. That site is where most people register for races.
If you have not sat in a formula car, I'd suggest you reach out to Steve Thomson soon. He's got a couple FC cars with MZR engines and sequential boxes in Minneapolis. They won't be here for long (like days) as he's moving his shop. Doing an arrive and drive with him next year will go a long way in helping you decide what to do. He has run top drivers in his cars, including Jordon Taylor and RC Enerson. Not to mention being a 2 time June Sprints winner himself.
Jim
Whaddayamean? Where else are you going to get helpers in the garage and the drivers for your race team's karting operation? :kiss:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
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Originally Posted by Jim Nash
Thanks Jim. Super helpful.
That's how I started out. I'm still mid-pack at best but found out hanging onto faster guys and trying to figure out how to get around slower ones is A LOT more fun than lapping around by myself. Depending, of course, on how much I can trust those other drivers - choose the right group and you'll become a racer in spite of yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
And Tim’s a good guy to run withQuote:
Originally Posted by TimH
It might be a benefit to ask which cars would be physically a good fit for a healthy sized driver.
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Originally Posted by jrh3
I like the way you phrased that!
I am one of the Radical dealers in the country and the rebuild cost range that you stated here is VERY inaccurate. The range you stated is almost double. Plus an incredible detail you didn't state is the Radical engine reliability vs these other. If you do the normal basic care that you're supposed to with the Radical engines then 99% chance they go the full life unlike most of other sports racers.
For you in MN specifically there is a big group of guys with Radicals that race together specifically at Brainerd which is fantastic for you. You'll have a bunch of the same cars to run with, learn from and have fun community with. Many of these folks are customers of mine on the parts side of things and I can put you in touch with them if needed. There is also big community in WI that are running at blackhawk and road america, and obviously massive community in IL.
Outside of the MN gang, there is obviously Radical Cup which runs at Road America every year on the Indy Car weekend. Over the last 4 years we have had 5-6 hours of track time on this event, Road America, Indy Car event and if you're not fit more track time than you can literally physically handle, pretty phenomenal combination. Here you will have 30-40 Radicals in the field to run with. SCCA wants to build up the P2 class and recognizes they need to get the 1500+ radicals in this country involved, they have already made rules changes to make the cars more competitive with more changes coming. These cars are also eligible for NASA and we run them alot in there and win overall in the Super Unlimited class.
The other huge detail that nobody else comes close to is factory/dealer support with Radical. In North America alone there is 10 dealers plus 2 in Canada. Between Group-A Racing (Me), Stradale & Spring Mountain there is over 2 million dollars of parts inventory in the country. So when you need something we have you covered. Unlike most of these other cars which never did have great supply and so many of them don't exist anymore, so good luck with that scavenger hunt. Plus outside the parts support is the tech support amongst the dealers, plus Radical now has full time employees state side just for USA customer tech help when needed.
As others have stated $30K is a very low budget to buy a sports racer. But I have 2 cars cars available that are really, really good cars and well below market deals that if you stretch just a bit over this, I can get you setup up with pretty modern great cars. Both these sellers purchased brand new cars with one of them moving up from SR3 to SR10.
Can PM, E-Mail or call for more info, I think I have done enough of a Radical infomercial in this thread ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
I just wanted to say a final "Thank you" to everyone that took the time to respond with their advice. I didn't end up where I thought I would when I initially started searching for a car. After sitting in several different cars I've purchased a SRF3. Having a cockpit I could fit in and large groups of cars at the tracks I will frequent made it a pretty easy decision in the end. Plus, everyone I spoke with from my region in the SRF class was super friendly and helpful.
I want to say a special thanks to Steve, Jim, David, and Sven who let me sit in their cars and met with me or talked to me numerous times. This is a really great group and I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at the track after a fun winter of upgrading the car.
Brad
Make sure you are 'updating' the car rather than 'upgrading'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
Remember, unless the rules explicitly allow something, it's not allowed. Especially on a spec car.
Have fun !
Hi Brad,Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
I don't know if you saw my ad here on the forum, but if you haven't, it's listed in P1/P2 cars for sale. It's a very well sorted Stohr 01D that really IS ready to race, and has a great history over the last 5 years. It has an annual tech that is good into March 2024. I have it listed for $35K, but feel free to make an offer. I'm considering renting it for a local race, with the rental fee applied to the sale price if you want to buy it.
Tom K 203-948-1413
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDF1
He purchased a SRF3.
Sounds like for the near term, you may have eliminated "podiums" and "prizes" for your car choices. That should open a lot of opportunities I'd think. Used SRFs Gen2-Gen3 are a bit more affordable as some drivers "age out." Suggest you check out those forums/pages too. Maybe a bit slower than Radicals, P2s, etc, but wheel to wheel. And maintenance is cheap and DIY!Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
I really enjoyed my experience in a Sports Renault, racing in a division only SPU, sort of a very modified SR(f) chassis and body with a 2.0L Renault engine. But, like your "plan" sounds; a few times a year - it filled the "Need for SPEED." Also, my personal need to modify areo and test...
Best of luck.
Cheers - Jim
OOPS - I see he bought a SRF3 - I think a perfect choice. Guess I am a SLOW TYPIST!
With all that was written here, and all things considered, I think you made the best-possible decision.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Brad, how about a picture of the new car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Allemay
Congratulations!!
Good idea. Here it is. It will look better by spring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ace37
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/att...d=108765&stc=1
Be sure to post a photo of the big grin on your face after your first drive.
I saw that. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by nautoncall
Congratulations! You’ll have fun. One question that may likely determine your early schedule… Do you have an SCCA license? Driver schools seem to be less frequent these days. But there are likely more ways to qualify for one. Check the GCR. At Scca.org under rules. David Schaal would be a good guide as I think he’s worked with many drivers coming from other series. He could also help with driver gear too. These are the items that can scupper people starting out.
Jim