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I certainly know that the driver who was killed could have behaved in a way that would have changed the outcome. I haven't seen nearly enough evidence to draw any conclusions about Tony Stewart's actions that night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug FST 5
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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
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Originally Posted by David Locke
Does your hypothetical also include a police officer with a radar gun aimed at you when the guy jumps from the bridge? In the type of incident you describe, would the police file charges and the prosecutor bring a criminal case if you were doing 72 in a 65 rather than 65 in a 65? I doubt it. (We're getting a bit far afield from the thread.)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing
A person can be prosecuted and already has. Same area of the country. A few years back on a short track one guy got punted and waited for the punter to come around again. Then he pulled a demolition-derby type move and crashed the punter out.
A prosecutor charged the puntee with vehicular assault, and I believe there was an attempted vehicular homicide charge as well. I actually wrote the prosecutor. IMHO, this was another case of one of those guys trying to make a name for himself with a ground-breaking case.
I think this stuff is best handled by stating clearly in the rules that IF you use your car to intentionally take out a fellow competitor the sanctioning body will refer the case for criminal prosecution. That in itself would do a lot to calm things down. I'm suprised that track and sanctioning body insurance doesn't mandate it. They don't want guys with a history of bonehead behavior hanging around.
Things have been heading this way for awhile - IIRC, a hockey player was charged with assault after beating another player with his stick.
doug,Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug FST 5
I comment because this step gets ignored all to often in pro races I see on tv, and we watch and then follow in suit
unless your car is on fire, do not unbuckle the belts, and therefore it follows; do not get out of the car until the safety crew comes and picks you up.
there is no grey area to this rule its black and white; it is what we are all taught the first day we get our license.
no matter how mad you are or how wronged you felt, stay in the car buckled up where you are protected.
just commenting to make sure that others reading this thread know how to protect yourself on a live racetrack(to me yellow flags are a live racetrack condition as cars are still moving and can hit oil or something that can still cause a loss of control)
That is the point. Here we are pre-determining intent - and as I said you've gotta love the law - he probably will be brought up on charges for someone to make a name for themselves.... guilty until proven innocent....Quote:
Originally Posted by David Locke
What is the criminal activity here?
Is power sliding a sprint car now criminal?
You can say that no one else hit the guy, but TS was the only car he ran AT.....
Did race officials stop the race....?
It's been a while since I went to driver's school, but I don't remember ever being taught this. I'm not going to sit in an impact area and wait for someone else to come run into me, which we have already seen happen this year. I get out of my car at a safe time and go somewhere safe (over the wall). That is what I see most other driver's do as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Pitt
Every single racing accident in Europe that involves a death is investigated by police for the sole purpose of finding fault/guilt. That includes the 'other driver', equipment manufacturers involved, race track owners, etc. And yes, people are prosecuted and found guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
Do not be involved in a deadly crash in Europe or you'll spend years working your way out of the situation.
The video that was posted on the previous page (removed now) had the slow motion of the actual contact. You can clearly see Tony sliding slightly sideways and up the track. Now that could be from hitting the gas, but it could also be from hitting the brakes, trying to avoid him and sliding up.
I think that the sound of the engine reving up really makes the accident seem bad. That sound could have been any car on the front stretch and likely was not even Tony. If Tony did hit the gas just before hitting him, it could have been checking to see if the car was ok from the incident the lap before, or even because he thought something may be thrown at his car, and was trying to get clear of the angry driver. Now I'm not saying that either of those would be the right thing to do, but it mean it was intentional to hit him.
Some guys are jumping all over Tony and saying it could be criminal charges etc. From what I've read and seen (might not be the whole story), There is really no evidence to say it was an intentional hit. The guy came more than halfway down the track. I doubt that there will be any criminal charges laid, and rightly so.
I think we can all agree that running ONTO the track to confront the other driver is not taught in any drivers school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wren
Criminal charges, no, but something tells me that there will be a civil suit awaiting a large check being written at the end of all of this mess.
:thumbsdown:
This is heartland American short track racing. It is designed to be a 'show' where the good & bad actors and chance of death are all part of the formula. This type of a response to a 'racing incident' has been well established since early in the last century. It will not be eliminated as a valued element of the 'show'.
I think it is safe to say that this driver was not concerned about the possibility of dying young or he would not have been competing in a sprint car. Statistically speaking, more sprint car drivers are killing in racing accidents than they are during expressions of displeasure at another driver.
I was disappointed to see that Steward did not race the next day. An old school oval racer, Foyt or Vukovich, would have been ready for the next heat race that same night.
Brian
Stewart is getting excellent counsel - it is reported that he has employed Jim Voyles who is a high end criminal attorney in Indy who has represented more than a few sports figures in criminal matters - one of the most notable being Mike Tyson in the rape case. Voyles is a big car nut and I believe had a partial interest in the race track they built at the old Bush Stadium near downtown Indy quite some time ago.
Lots of speculation no doubt - where this ends up, who knows.
But, he was found guilty! Just how good is that lawyer??Quote:
Originally Posted by John LaRue
One hates to lay blame at times like these... Sprint cars on dirt are always a handful to drive. The tracks develop ruts & holes. They are still going at a fast pace even under yellow. Drivers routinely hit the gas to keep heat in the tires, etc. These cars are meant to go sideways & they do with little provocation.
It's inherently dangerous to exit your vehicle & climb over the wall anytime there are cars coming by. 'Stuff' happens. Standing in front of your car offers little protection, certainly unwise. Standing between your car & oncoming cars ? 'Rock & a hard place'. Walking into the traffic lane of oncoming cars ?
No one would be expecting, let alone looking for someone to be directly in the path of passing cars. Not on the highway. Certainly, not on a race track.
I sincerely hope a lawsuit isn't filed. Racing Accidents happen. We all know this going in.
What we all need to remember is the sadness of a family grieving over the loss of a young son.
Where it goes from here will be a study of society in this day and age.
For example; What would have transpired these last few day if it had been the car in front of TS that hit the young fellow? Most likely it would not have made it much past the local evening news.
Because a person of notoriety was involved, will the local DA feel the need to satisfy political pressure and take actions differently than if it had been the car in front of TS that was involved in the event.
If regulators (be it race officials, insurance, or even legislative authorities) react with written requirement to prevent such a tragedy, what would such rule/legislation be? Most likely "Unless your car is on fire, do not get out of the car until safety personnel are present." Kind of silly to have a rule "Do not run over a person standing on the racing surface."
Criminal charges? I guess we will have to see how it plays out. Even so, I suspect the odds are very high for a civil case because a person of notoriety is involved. In which case comparative negligence would be the logical outcome.
But, amid this circus we call society, we need to remember we lost a member of our racing fraternity. If nothing else this should be a wakeup call to everyone, what we do is dangerous, act accordingly.
[QUOTE=Josh Pitt;441281]doug,
I comment because this step gets ignored all to often in pro races I see on tv, and we watch and then follow in suit
unless your car is on fire, do not unbuckle the belts, and therefore it follows; do not get out of the car until the safety crew comes and picks you up.
QUOTE]
Overall I think this is a big difference between road course racing and small ovals. At a road course I'm assuming the cars passing by are 'at speed'. I get out and jump the wall if I feel it is safer to do that. I've also broken the car and wound up right in the middle being passed on both sides. I waited for the truck to cover me in that one even though the corner workers were encouraging me to bail out and jump the wall (WGI in the inner loop in the 90's).
At a small oval once the field is at caution speed I'd get out for sure. The guy with the hook is on his way. I can speed all this up if I'm out of the car so he can haul it away. The big point being I would hope to think more with the big head than the other one and stay near my car, not swagger around pointing digits.
Doug FST 5
I suspect the reason Tony was so shaken up was that he was a willing participant in the incident. Just my opinion. Flame on.
Pretty damned good!Quote:
But, he was found guilty! Just how good is that lawyer??
I see this crap from time to time with drivers at short tracks getting out of their car and making a scene..IT is a stupid practice and happens way too often.
Regarding the sprint car. They are designed with almost zero visibility out of the right side. All the dirt, rocks and other debris is thrown onto the right side of the car and therefore has lots of protection that limit your vision..left side is fine.
900 HP sprint cars have the most sensitive throttle I have ever experienced. When at idle, just the small bumps on the track cause you blip the throttle...I do not find it surprising to hear the throttle accelerate at the point of impact. Something getting into the right rear wheel is going to force the drivers limbs to move forward..sprint car throttle pedals are saddled and go straight down to the floor. A horrible outcome for what started out as a night of enjoyment.
You don't get out of the car and linger on the track after a shunt, our dearest Bill Scott got hit in Germany lingering near his championship Formula Vee, leg damage for sure but more than that, nerve damage all the way to his damaged side hearing, I religeously dive over or head over the tire wall and out of harms way with that past lesson (early 70's??) in mind ......... definately don't challenge an on-track car ....... stupido, is that espanol ........, no impulse here, leave it at that folks ......
So Wannabe, you ex-air-force being from Montgomery?? Yea, we are worried about it but should just pass on it, bury the hype or a g-jury cud be comprimised in a guessing fashion ..... again no TV interviews by all parties
Sometimes DA's take easy cases to make a name for themselves but, if they are easy then guilt is a given so everybody's happy. They typically avoid tough cases that could result in making a bad name for themselves because they could turn out the wrong way, like O.J.. This D.A will most likely grand jury the case and let those chosen to say whether there is enough probable cause to justify a charge against Tony. In my opinion (for whatever that's worth) there is enough to justify convening a grand jury to look at it. If the GJ comes back with a "no bill" or a "true bill" this D.A has done his job and should not have offended anyone...If it's true billed then a jury will decide his guilt or innocence beyond a reasonable doubt...That's the way a good D.A makes a name for himself.
Think the kid hit (clarify, walked into) Tony's car in a 'Glamour Stuper', yea, Tony's big time', he pro sports, "USA" ................. both parties too close ..... eos, end of story
A grand jury ? Seriously ? Loaded with locals ? I certainly hope not. The young man was grandstanding in front of his hometown crowd & paid dearly. Our actions have consequences. Not always desirable.... I've lost many friends over the years due to unintended consequences. Save the glider, loose your life. Save the plane, loose your life. Win the race, loose your life. Save face, loose your life.
This has been a sad accident for all concerned. I sincerely hope that all concerned simply accept it as a tragic accident and leaves it at that....
From what I have heard [have not seen the video], TS had very limited time to see the "dressed-to-be-invisible-at-night" kid, and poor vision from that side of his car, while in a high powered ride on a slick surface. Do you really think he had time to decide to goose him? He probably was surprised to find an unprotected human in his path, and maybe he didn't react perfectly. Maybe he instinctively cut the wheel away and gassed it, trying to cut in, but the tail came out. It would have been a logical, reflex reaction, [exactly what I'd have done, most likely] with unfortunately predictable results. But TS apparently didn't have time to A] Plan a hit / gesture / macho-move, and B] work out the physics of doing what our instincts tell us to do. Sounds like fatal poor judgement / showboating by the younger driver too me. Tragic, but unlikely criminal or even negligent, IMO, based on what I know as stated above. Really tragic for the family, and no court case will change that one iota.
[BTW:I don't follow NASCAR, and couldn't have picked TS out of a lineup before yesterday]
Article from Albany, NY newspaper:
http://www.timesunion.com/news/crime...#photo-6710349
Tnx Jim, wonder if Tony should drive a cerimonial lap at Warsaw, show his roots n colors .... very truamatic though .... quiet would be in order
In this article, http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...incart_m-rpt-2, Ward's father specifically states that he thinks "the reason he probably got out of that car is who put him into the wall."Quote:
Originally Posted by David Locke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tqj8DcwZk8
Slow-mo of the incident.
Terrible tragedy.
There are comments below the article that's linked in #67 that the slow-motion video shows Ward actually jumped on Stewart's car by grabbing the wing end plate, lost his grip, and got caught by the right rear tire. Having watched the slow-mo, I can't rule this out, but I also can't see enough to say definitively that's what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
i saw the same, but with the terrible quality of the video ( and no software that can clear things up a bit better), my eyes could be way wrong.
Perhaps some good will come from this... It's time to ban - penalize on track antics... this ain't pro wrestling. ...
There are reports that another video has surfaced but hasn't been made public yet.
Just watched it again and you can see his hands up on the wing as the car goes by him.
Holy hell.
I think I can see that. But could it be a defensive reaction?
...hands up on the wing proves what?
Was he trying to jump up on to Tony's car? Was he trying to grab on to the wing to pull himself up out of the way of the right rear tire?
I don't know about anybody else but I've stood by the right rear tire of a sprint car and if I saw that it and I were going to collide I would do everything in my power to get the hell out the way.
I agree, and I think litigation arising from this incident would make organizers more likely to do so. But I question how likely litigation is. Presumably Ward's father had not retained an attorney when he gave the interview linked in #67, or the interview likely would not have taken place. And for good reason: He admits this was the first time his son had ever gotten out of his car during a race and thinks the reason he got out is who put him into the wall -- information that would be damaging to any criminal or civil case.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdad2
I had the pleasure of meeting & talking with TS about ten years ago. Very personable. Very much a racer. The notion that he intentionally ran into Ward or even 'gunned' it to intimidate him is ludicrous. Sprint cars are a handful to drive & 'precision' is not what they're known for. Just the opposite. The visibility is minimal. The throttle super sensitive. My guess is TS saw Ward & was totally startled & did his best to miss him. A reflex action. I doubt any of us could have avoided the young man.... IMHO....
Robin Miller's analysis is excellent - as always - and he has a vast perspective on the sport to support his views. This is just what is needed in the face of "reports" or "opinion" pieces by typical media types who know so little about the sport.
Over the past few days since this unfortunate tragedy; I have heard a lot of "news reports; and opinions from people who to some degree I trust with opinions/facts/news on things like legislation, business, politics, international situations, sports. I have allowed myself to believe that since they are in the positions they are in, have the jobs that they have and talk with the people that they talk to; that they offer the rest of us some reasonable, valuable, intelligent insight.
I now feel that they are not due the concession that they may know what they are talking about because of some of the ludicrous, ridiculous and outright sensationalist stances that they have staked out with their "informed" opinions on the Stewart/Ward incident.
After listening to the trash that Nancy Grace, Colin Cowherd, Keith Olbermann, etc., etc. have presented as "news"; I no longer believe that these are "experts", but rather court whores, narrow minded elitist twits and dim bulbs who value the sound of their own voices more than they value facts, truth and real reporting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and it is my opinion that these supposedly intelligent people apparently are not smart enough to know what they don't know..................... So, it makes me wonder why should I believe anything they might choose to offer as fact, or insight in their supposed fields of expertise.
On the other hand, I must acknowledge and applaud the amazing and incredibly talented Oscar worthy makeup experts who have somehow be able to disguise several sphincter muscles as human faces so that that could render opinions that definitely have their origins in the plumbing leading to that orifice!
Joe Marcinski