Demographics and appropriate technology.
The fact that we haven't build a new car in 11 years may explain more about the car market than our failure as a car building company. If you look at the run offs, our cars have been competitive in both FF and FC each of the last 11 years. Our customer base has not expanded over the years. That is also ture for the classes we serve.
Look at all the versions of Van Diemen that have taken a run at us. The truth is that if you brought a 94 Citation to me it would cost $10,000 to bring the design current. We have been fortunate that we have not had to build cars to keep the parts business.
Personally I think Marshall's suggestion for 600cc class aimed more at FF performance is really what is needed. That would be a ture entry level class. My support for the F1000 is because I see it as a first step. Having two classes based on the same car really is attractive to builders.
I ask Stan and Lee if we go with your rules how do we compete with the other formulas in that price range? Look at where the numbers are in club racing FV, F500, FF, and FC, plus off shoots of those classes. That is your demographics. The trick is to design a class that 10% to 20% of racers and potential racers in those classes will look to buy new cars. FA has never been a big class in club racing and that is the type of car you are advocating.
Stan, you are wrong about tube frame technology being 40 years old. It has its roots in aviation dating back to the 1920's. Practically every aerobatic plane built today uses a steel tube fuselage because it has a better weight to strength ratio. The Lola T97 Indy Lights car used wood in that chassis. The quality of a car is more the engineering effort that goes into the design and construction than what you choose to build it out of. I had this same argument with Paul White in the 80's about aluminum monocoques. They were stronger than tube structures but they were not even close to being as durable. As such we were wise not to change to aluminum monocoque construction for FF, no FC then.
I also do a lot with crew shells. Those are carbon composites. They stay together for years. But they de-laminate after a few years. Once they start to delaminate the performance of the boat deteroriates significantly. It looks good and still floats but it doesn't go fast any more.
When we build race cars for club racing we need to think of what the car will be like in 20 years. With the continuous advance in tires the old cars are being stressed well beyond the original design. In the '70's you never expected a FF to do more than 1g in a corner. Today they can do 1.8g and sustain it. (peak g's for turn 1 at MO). The tube structures are much easier to repair and modify to deal with increasing loads. We need to stay with that technology!
Steve Lathrop
Maybe this is three classes
I think there may be room for all three designs being proposed here...
Marshall's idea of a 600cc car in the tradition on FF is a good one. Some guys in Canada have been at this for years, calling it F4. With the untenable motor situation in FF maybe a F600 class would garner some real interest. Keep the rules like FF (tube frame, no wings, small tires) and you would potentially have a cheap class that would have all of the FSAE guys drooling. Target prices at current F500 level or very slightly higher - $20,000.
I personally am interested in a F1000 class that tries to limit investment. Basically FC like chassis rules, with limited track and wheelbase to keep chassis from going obsolete all the time. Allow wider sidepods to allow Speads/Jedi/Gloria/OMS cars to compete too. Maybe allow 8/10" wheels to reduce tire wear, but keep the bottoms flat. Consider a "gentlemen's agreement" to run stock production motors only (with mods for dry sump/exhaust type stuff. Target price at 'volume' SCCA racer market - under $30,000.
Finally to placate the 'no rules' crowd. Allow a FA like chassis wiith bike motors prepared to the current CSR rules (up to 1500cc). This could be a carbon tub/tunnels car that truely kicks the @ss of cars like FBMW. For the "uber racer" that has money to burn on his/her club racing. Target price - Well if you have to ask...
Sean
Lee I dont think you get it...
The very first DSR you made and delivered to me at the 2001 Runoffs had a 'junkyard' motor straight from Jean Houde. I ran most of three seasons on these R1s generally acquired at $12-1500. I won a bunch of races that way and the only reason they ever failed as far as I can tell was excessive chassis flex transferred through the stressed engine case (something you and West have since addressed). Many DSR racers I know have run 20-30 races on their stock or mildly tuned motors.
In fact in 2002 when you mounted a "factory" DSR for Mark J. you used a 'junker' so bad you had to spray WD40 into it to get it cranking. There are pictures on the Sportsracer.com site even now (along with a quote from you gushing about the merits of junker bike motors in DSR) You only put in a prepped engine for the qualifying sessions and race.
I realize that you have moved up market. You have high end customers and alliances with Arnie Loyning. You have no personal economic incentive to provide a cheap racing experience for the average DSR or formula car guys. In fact just the opposite.
I appreciate what you have achieved in DSR, but that is most definitely not what most of the guys I am talking to want to achieve w/F1000. We want to avoid the arms race scenario, and keep costs VERY low. We are not looking to replace FC, just to provide a neat, low cost fun alternative with a cool engine/transmission package.
Sean
You're taking too long! Do something, anything.
You're taking too long to hash this out. I ran FF for three years. I bought a second FF and a R1. Had it all mocked up a year ago...and waited for you "experts" to get something down on paper.
Net result, I sold all the pieces and bought a FC two months ago. I was afraid to spent even $5k for such an unstable rules situation.
I have a Pinto powered car with stable rules and the option to go Zetec if I want to IN THE SAME CLASS. If you could make your bike powered FC's equal to my Pinto, I would welcome you to the FC class. The door has been opened for Zetecs in FC. I suggest that you step through before it slams shut.
You have at best ONE class that you can bring to life. You better start talking about competition equalizers to be INCLUSIVE to all comers (like FS, and now FC) instead of EXCLUSIVE like so many comments I read here. Why are you talking about faster this or faster than that? Start discussing equally faster and you will find the magic.