Who's driving the safety wagon at CASC?

All,

We were at VARAC this weekend running in the Toyo series - not my best effort sadly, and I had to sit out the last race, and watch it from Corner 2 (Mosport). For those of you that have not driven here, you should try to do it - a friend came up with his FF from Michigan and had a silly grin on his face all weekend.....

About 2-3 laps in, two cars come together in the bottom of two - light contact, front wheel on back wheel, one manages to spin and rejoin and the other spins/rolls backwards across the very long apron to the infield wall. I can only assume that he touched the wall, but the car was clearly not so damaged that it couldn't roll very easily. What followed next was bizarre.....

Driver gets out, and walks to his left where there is a break in the wall (where the wall overlaps itself, so you can easily push a car in there out of danger). Unfortunately, the car was not in gear, and it started to roll towards the track - driver manages to get it stopped short of the track, but the whole enchilada was pretty bad. He wheels the car back up to where it was, puts it in gear, and gets behind the wall.

There is a wrecker literally 100 yards down track. Pace car is called out and field slowed. Wrecker doesn't move - we wait quite some time for a flatbed to come, which "covers" the stricken car from traffic (I guess?), a safety truck shows up, a red SUV drives on over, then the wrecker comes counter race, and then the ambulance shows up for the driver. 5 safety vehicles for a FF that rolls and could have been rolled behind the wall in a matter of seconds.

Much discussion takes place, at least a half dozen folks walking around. Well over half the race was under pace car while it got all sorted out.

It never used to be this way. I understand VARAC has a policy of using the bus if you contact a wall - fine. But waiting for 5 safety vehicles seemed - excessive?? The safety truck that showed up was stationed 150 yards before the incident and could have covered the wrecker/personnel. Better yet, the car could have simply been pushed by two folks/marshalls behind the wall in a matter of seconds, and picked up on the cool down lap.

I'm not griping about volunteers doing the job the way they are told to do it - I totally appreciate them for what they do, which enables me to race. I am more wondering why it has got to this? There were a lot of people on a hot track doing not much for a long time, which seems a lot less safe than rolling a car behind a wall quickly....

best,
BT

Unfortunately, this has also become quite common during SCCA races. The 'new rule corner workers' are PROHIBITED from leaving the flag station (area) or from getting on the track surface AT ALL unless the entire field is "under control".. which generally means that ALL running cars must be snugged up behind a pace car or parked on pit lane .. INSIDE PIT LANE.. not just headed for it. SO.. if ONE CAR is 'hanging back' for whatever reason. EVERYONE waits until he catches up and NOTHING HAPPENS with regards to the incident. That also usually means that NO EV leaves it's station until same occurs.

This is basic CRAP that has been derived from the litigious society that we have created. I don't know who to blame for this other than our wonderful (politically based) justice system... and the MILLIONS of hungry lawyers that it has created.

I long for the old days... where people signed a waiver and took their chances.. based on how they WANT to live their lives.

Boo Hiss!
Steve, FV80

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

This is basic CRAP that has been derived from the litigious society that we have created. I don't know who to blame for this other than our wonderful (politically based) justice system... and the MILLIONS of hungry lawyers that it has created.

I long for the old days... where people signed a waiver and took their chances.. based on how they WANT to live their lives.

Boo Hiss!
Steve, FV80

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Epic rant to start this fine Friday morning! Well done! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

That also usually means that NO EV leaves it's station until same occurs.

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So much for quick response to a possible injury... :thumbsdown::mad:
Glenn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

Unfortunately, this has also become quite common during SCCA races. The 'new rule corner workers' are PROHIBITED from leaving the flag station (area) or from getting on the track surface AT ALL unless the entire field is "under control".. which generally means that ALL running cars must be snugged up behind a pace car or parked on pit lane .. INSIDE PIT LANE.. not just headed for it. SO.. if ONE CAR is 'hanging back' for whatever reason. EVERYONE waits until he catches up and NOTHING HAPPENS with regards to the incident. That also usually means that NO EV leaves it's station until same occurs.

This is basic CRAP that has been derived from the litigious society that we have created. I don't know who to blame for this other than our wonderful (politically based) justice system... and the MILLIONS of hungry lawyers that it has created.

I long for the old days... where people signed a waiver and took their chances.. based on how they WANT to live their lives.

Boo Hiss!
Steve, FV80

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Unfortunately I think the insurance has a lot to do with these change of operating. I agree with going back to the OLD way, but that would require competent driving and I don't think we have that anymore.

With everyone now willing to drive distracted on the public roads then they feel fine not observing the flags anymore. The stewards in US seem more about control of the track, read race, than actually penalizing the drivers for bad conduct.

At Pitt for my First race at the FV bday weekend I caught grief for blowing the black flag, but I said I didn't see one till the start stand and immediately slowed down and did the lap to come in. I went to the tower the next day and asked about it and talked to the announcer and he brought the group and he pointed out the yellow came out 30 seconds before I blew the black flag, but he said there might have been a delay till the blag flag came out.

I spoke to Chuck that evening about it at the Bday party and mentioned the corner stations are a brown color and if they just hang a black flag along the stand it could be hard for the drivers to notice and they might consider waving it. He did say he would talk about that being a potential problem. I have 40+ years of road racing experience and I am pretty observant, but everyone can miss things once in awhile.

Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

Unfortunately, this has also become quite common during SCCA races. The 'new rule corner workers' are PROHIBITED from leaving the flag station (area) or from getting on the track surface AT ALL unless the entire field is "under control".. which generally means that ALL running cars must be snugged up behind a pace car or parked on pit lane .. INSIDE PIT LANE.. not just headed for it. SO.. if ONE CAR is 'hanging back' for whatever reason. EVERYONE waits until he catches up and NOTHING HAPPENS with regards to the incident. That also usually means that NO EV leaves it's station until same occurs.

This is basic CRAP that has been derived from the litigious society that we have created. I don't know who to blame for this other than our wonderful (politically based) justice system... and the MILLIONS of hungry lawyers that it has created.

I long for the old days... where people signed a waiver and took their chances.. based on how they WANT to live their lives.

Boo Hiss!
Steve, FV80

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As Greg says, an epic rant. :)

Certainly, insurance and changing attitudes play a role. But more as effect than cause.


My experience is mainly in the East (Areas 1, 2, 10, 12). At least in that part of the world, the progression was quite marked. Even 10 years ago, with the exception of the Glen, which is its own NASCAR thing, hot pulls were the norm.


It started at VIR, when the track decreed no hot pulls, and spread from there. The reason? Racecars colliding with track EVs. I was at one event when a SRF hit a truck under local Yellow. Result? No more hot pulls, and the unenforceable Code 35.


It spread from there. The track manager at Summit Point visited VIR, came back, and decreed no hot pulls with track equipment (ambulance, fire truck). Region EVs could still do hot pulls, but drivers kept kept overdriving the Yellow zones. One weekend, WDCR EV went on strike after SSM idiocy under a local Yellow.


As unfortunate as these policies are, they flow directly from driver behavior. Sadly, there is a ratchet effect -- restrictions tighten, but never loosen.


There is good reason for forbidding flaggers to approach a hot track. The modal cause of death for flaggers at events is leaving the protection of the station, and getting hit by a car or debris. And, with the declining volunteer base, there are often not enough flaggers to respond without abandoning the station's flag display even if permitted.


Drivers brought this on themselves. As ever, the actions of a few spoil things for the many.

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

Drivers brought this on themselves. As ever, the actions of a few spoil things for the many.

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This has nothing to do with insurance or the legal system.

Brian

However, in this particular case, the car was a LOOOOONG way from the racing surface. I get that Marshalls can't leave the post etc (I didn't know that until John's post btw - in my marshalling days many years ago, we'd run down the side of the track with a fire bottle to check on a driver!). But why a hot pull in this case at all? The car is nowhere near the racing surface, the driver is out of the car and behind the wall, and the pace car is out. Why not let the field observe where the car is for a lap or two, then bring the pace car in and go green? If you get that far off the road to hit the stranded car, you're likely going to be hitting the wall anyhow.

This would seem to me to be far safer than a half dozen guys walking around on a hot track for 7-8 laps....

cheers,
bt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Nesbitt

...It started at VIR, when the track decreed no hot pulls, and spread from there. The reason? Racecars colliding with track EVs. I was at one event when a SRF hit a truck under local Yellow. Result? No more hot pulls, and the unenforceable Code 35.


It spread from there.....

Drivers brought this on themselves. As ever, the actions of a few spoil things for the many.

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What was the REASON the SRF hit the EV??
In MY experience there is a LOT more problem with drivers of the emergency vehicles than the racing vehicles. On no less than 3 occasions, I have been on a DY track when encountering an EV .. and had the EV PULL ACROSS track in front of me with NO WARNING .. or move across track SLOWLY with LOTS of room on one side until I was committed to that side and THEN starting to cross .. or drive me off track driver's left after moving full driver's right in an apparent (to me) move to allow me to safely pass on the left. ONE of these was at Road Atlanta.. the other 2 were at VIR. It is apparent to me that EV drivers are NOT qualified to 'watch for traffic'.. they just expect drivers to ... I dunno ...... stay behind them.. forever?

MAYBE some guidelines from 'on high' would help? But DRIVERS are instructed to 'catch up to the pack' and 'leave no gaps' .. and it's impossible to achieve those goals without going faster than the pace car is going at some point .. and passing EV's that might be encountered when/if they might be allowed on track.

I will say that THAT is much less of an issue if ZERO EV's are allowed onto the track until ALL cars are in pit lane.. but that is not necessarily because DRIVER's can't deal with the problem. We manage to race around and around tracks at ~90+ MPH without hitting anything (for the most part) and without causing undue grief to others around us. EV drivers can't seem to manage 35 MPH and still look behind them occasionally to see if there is a RACE CAR approaching (even when there are 2 or more people IN the EV) .. at a significantly reduced speed .. but still higher than the EV is traveling. It is not logical that a race car should be able to get alongside an EV without the EV having any idea that the race car is there.. at any speed. I have come within a whisker of contacting an EV.. but it was not 'my doings' that created the situations.. but MY REACTIONS and SKILL that avoided contact.

The apparent alternative to 'training EV drivers' has been to penalize ALL race car drivers so that EV drivers don't have to learn anything new - not even stuff that should be in use EVERY DAY on EVERY ROAD (situational awareness of who's around you).

'Overdriving' yellows is a constant complaint of EV, but seldom is it justified. It's just not possible for an EV person to judge HOW FAST a driver is going compared to HOW FAST he would be going if he had not SLOWED down for the situation. Standing on the side of the road, it's pretty tough to guess if a passing car is going 30 .. or 50. It all looks 'fast' compared to someone standing still. And is always looks MUCH WORSE if there are 10 cars going by at the same time.. even if they are 20 or 50 mph slower than 'racing'.

Steve, FV80

@Steve Davis "What was the REASON the SRF hit the EV??"

The EV was stationary at the side of the track. So it was entirely the fault of the SRF driver. REASON? Pfft! There is zero justification for hitting a stationary EV. Absolutely none at all.

And there was certainly no question of "having to catch the pack". The was a local Yellow, as I wrote.

Certainly, a driver and an EV worker might have different perceptions of what constitutes overdriving a Yellow. However, if we have to choose between the perception of a driver, and that of an EV worker hooking up a car, I shall go with the EV worker's every time.

What can you do with the driver who tells you that he had to drive at near-race speed through a complex Yellow zone because, if he slowed, the car behind would pass him as they got back to racing? We yanked his license, but the damage was already done.

As I wrote above, it is not every driver, but enough to poison the well for everybody.

So it is the EV's drivers fault. For the track owner/operate it is easier and cheaper to simply shut down the session that try to train the the EV operators. What is their financial motivation to do otherwise?

Brian

Some of it may go back to Jules Bianchi hitting the mobile crane and losing his life in Japan?? a couple years back.

If I recall (getting old here), the incident of the SRF hitting an EV involved excessive speed and passing in a waving yellow zone AND (maybe) oil on the track that had been identified with a debris flag at least one lap earlier.
The EV was either a wrecker or flatbed that had initially parked to protect the incident & workers but, at the time of the impact, was lifting/loading a vehicle.
The blame lies TOTALLY with the SRF driver(s) that were still racing without regard for others' safety.
I do not recall the penalties that were doled out but it seems to me something this egregious should have warranted a mandatory and immediate revocation of competition license (and loss of all season points) with a requirement to successfully complete a drivers school.
Just my thoughts.
Glenn