"Defensive" Driving

My kid is getting his license to drive on the street. So we signed him up for a defensive driving class so he can get a feel for accident avoidance in a parking lot first. I was however disappointed with two things:

First, while they called it "defensive driving", not once did they teach him how to pinch the line let alone how to throw a full blown block. What kind of "defensive driving" is that?

Second, while running the slalom, he hit a cone. No, I am not disappointed that he hit a cone. That is what the learning process was all about. I am disappointed that he perfectly hit it with the rear tire sidewall. Proving.... even my kid can hit an apex better than I can. D'oh!

Eric Little

did you send him to the McKeever school?

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

did you send him to the McKeever school?

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No. It was much more basic. Taught in a day in the parking lot at Anaheim Stadium. It is not a high speed drill. Students drive at a pace they are comfortable with and are encouraged to pick up the pace as they go on. Basic hand-eye coordination and getting a feel for what a vehicle will do under stress. They simulate issues that could happen on the street using those pesky orange cones to define the things you don't want to hit.

It is very basic but far better than what I got in High School at his age before getting my license. The next course (which he has not done yet) includes skid control. They hose down an area in the lot. The student drives into the wet and has to make a fairly sharp turn to avoid the cones. As the student turns, the instructor hand brakes the car locking the rear wheels. The student needs to counter-steer to keep the car from coming around.

I personally believe that every driver should be required to spin a car (in controlled circumstances) before being issued a license. They need to feel and understand what causes it as well as feel and understand how to control it.

Eric Little

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Originally Posted by Eric Little

No. It was much more basic. Taught in a day in the parking lot at Anaheim Stadium. It is not a high speed drill. Students drive at a pace they are comfortable with and are encouraged to pick up the pace as they go on. Basic hand-eye coordination and getting a feel for what a vehicle will do under stress. They simulate issues that could happen on the street using those pesky orange cones to define the things you don't want to hit.

It is very basic but far better than what I got in High School at his age before getting my license. The next course (which he has not done yet) includes skid control. They hose down an area in the lot. The student drives into the wet and has to make a fairly sharp turn to avoid the cones. As the student turns, the instructor hand brakes the car locking the rear wheels. The student needs to counter-steer to keep the car from coming around.

I personally believe that every driver should be required to spin a car (in controlled circumstances) before being issued a license. They need to feel and understand what causes it as well as feel and understand how to control it.

Eric Little

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Funny that is the same thing pilots and instructors used to say years ago about "spin training" for student pilots after the FAA dropped that requirement from the curriculum. It is ok to say if you avoid a stall you will never spin but what if you do and don't know how to recover?:confused:

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Originally Posted by captaineddie1975

Funny that is the same thing pilots and instructors used to say years ago about "spin training" for student pilots after the FAA dropped that requirement from the curriculum. It is ok to say if you avoid a stall you will never spin but what if you do and don't know how to recover?:confused:

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Why am I not surprised. We keep changing tests so fewer people fail. They didn't get smarter/better, we just don't asked the tough questions anymore...

It's been many years since I've flown. What else did they change? That's like saying rotary wing training doesn't need auto rotation training.... :meatball:

The Teen Street Survival School is excellent. Sponsored by the Tire Rack and run by SCCA regions and BMW chapters. Held all across the US.

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Originally Posted by Jim Garry

The Teen Street Survival School is excellent. Sponsored by the Tire Rack and run by SCCA regions and BMW chapters. Held all across the US.

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I instructed at one of those a few years back and the kids (and parents) learned quite a bit. Even the kids who were there because they were forced ended up enjoying it. I learned quite a bit dealing with Chicago snow in the Winter and having a 5 liter Mustang my entire adolescent life. It's hard to imagine how many kids don't have that to learn from and ending up experiencing bad conditions when it's too late. The skid pad exercise helps them a little, but I always recommend to the parents to take their kids to an open parking lot when it first snows to let them drive in it before they're caught in it.

My first driving instructor Ronn Langford founded a company called MasterDrive to focus on Teenage Driver Education. I have given MasterDrive courses to several co-workers and friends kids when they first started to drive. It's a very impressive program that can really make a difference:

http://www.masterdrive.com/about-us/our-history/

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Originally Posted by David Ferguson

My first driving instructor Ronn Langford founded a company called MasterDrive to focus on Teenage Driver Education. I have given MasterDrive courses to several co-workers and friends kids when they first started to drive. It's a very impressive program that can really make a difference:

http://www.masterdrive.com/about-us/our-history/

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David,

That is who did this instruction for my son. I found the vast majority of what they were saying to be spot on. There was one issue that I disagree with slightly but it was so minor as to not worry about. If the majority of cars today did not have ABS, then I would have been more worried about this point but since they do, a lot of sins can be covered up.

Eric Little

my daughter is a sheriff deputy in the sf bay area.

the favorite part of her training was the driving part.

i don't have a clue as to why.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7646443645344/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/466819...7646443645344/

I also think all new drivers should have to learn to drive a standard! All 4 of my kids had to!

Everything that everyone has commented on is something that has bothered me for some time. To that end, I have partnered with fellow SCCA racer, Brent Thompson to form Accelerated Performance Coaching and have created a strategic alliance with All American Driver Education here in Connecticut. We both are certified and licensed State of Connecticut driving instructors and through AADE provide initial driver training for new drivers to assist with obtaining their license. Once a client obtains their license, APC will offer a wide variety of courses in skid control, accident avoidance, winter driving and even non-driving classes, including car maintenance basics and emergency road preparedness.

While the business is in it's infancy, both Brent and I are passionate about better educating and preparing new drivers for the daily challenges they will face on the road. We are both parents and have witnessed too many tragedies some very close to home. While we do what we can during our learner permit lessons, many state restrictions prevent us from deviating too far from their mandated curriculum. That is why a majority of the driving techniques will be provide after a student's license has been obtained.

Here is our website

http://acceleratedperformancecoaching.com

I would love to chat with any fellow "Apexspeed'ers to get your thoughts and ideas, as we are always looking to improve/expand/develop...

Chris;

if you are serious about training new drivers, a good friend - Trish Johnson - has what is possibly the best virtual driving simulator in the country. I highly recommend that you contact her.

http://www.apexresourcecenter.com/

I'm fortunate enough to instruct at several Teen Smarts, Street Smarts and EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operations and Control) Schools at Brainerd International Raceway for BIR'S Performance Driving School and the Morries Automotive Group's new driver training.

We have high speed emergency lane change, threshold braking, skid control, high speed two wheels off, etc.

I love that we provide real world driving skills. Watching the kids rain confidence and skill sets through out the program is very rewarding.

My favorite course is the EVOC training we provide for Law Enforcement. All the typical emergency procedures. Pit maneuvers on dry pavement at speed and the high speed pursuits on track with lights and sirens to top off the day.

Very rewarding for all involved. I'd like to see this mandatory for everyone driving.... sans pit and hugh speed pursuit... ????????

I put my 16 year old daughter through defensive driving, collision avoidance and skid car training, the collision avoidance was a four hour hands on class that wasn't bad. Though I went to view these first before enrolling her to see if I was satisfied with their technique her favorite part was skid car which I thought was lackluster but she enjoyed it. I can sleep at night with her driving and she started (last night) asking about learning how to drive a manual transmission,she has been around formula cars her whole life and actually was surprised everyone didn't have one in their garage when she was little :D. So manual transmission training is next I will send her to the same school and we shall see where she wants to go from that, I think I already know the next ask ;).
Does anyone know of a stunt drivers course? Why because it has to be cheaper than letting her learn this stuff on our cars first:p.

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Originally Posted by Rick Brannon

Does anyone know of a stunt drivers course? Why because it has to be cheaper than letting her learn this stuff on our cars first:p.

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For the hell of it I did a quick google and was surprised to find that there are a LOT of them!

However, I'd bet that they really want somewhat experienced drivers instead of newbies.

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Originally Posted by Eric Little

I personally believe that every driver should be required to spin a car (in controlled circumstances) before being issued a license. They need to feel and understand what causes it as well as feel and understand how to control it.

Eric Little

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Dad did that with us as kids - but on a frozen lake with a 6000 pound Chrysler! Once you learn controlling spins on glare ice with a land yacht, anything smaller is a piece of cake!

Saved my life a couple times when the sh!t was trying to hit the fan..... :)

i never got any proper defensive driving instruction.

dad was a private pilot for a big lettuce grower in salinas valley. we lived in watsonville and the plane was based at the local airport there, a former ww11 naval airbase.

there was a small "tug" that was left there after the war. one of dad's friends taught me to drive it when i was in fifth grade. learned how to use a stick with that.

when i was an early teen my dad taught me how to drive his '52 ford consul, same as the one pictured below

https://www.google.com/search?q=53+f...whk1bFNaqBJMM:

1500 cc. four banger with a top speed pf 72mph.

when it rained i used the airport taxiway as my skidpad.

tried but couldn't get it going fast enough to spin it,

fast forward to the summer of '64, driving home from working in the lettuce fields one day brother and another in the car with me in my '59 volvo 544 on molera rd. a two-lane cut short that bypassed castroville and monterey.

haulin' ass through the last right--hander leading to u.s.1 i lost it big time. saved it as my 10 yr. older bro just looked it me in amazement.

that was my first experience with oversteer.

fast forward again the winters between '69 and '72.

going to grad school in reno. new beetle and el nino winters.

the parking lot for our office building was in the bowl where the football stadium had been. when the snow melted the water would collect in the bowl and often it would turn to ice.

that was my skid pad.

things were different in those days.

I really did not think this thread would attract this much attention. I figured I would tell a couple of jokes, get fewer than 100 views and a sympathy like (Thanks Mom!).

I am very happy to see how these courses are catching on and that some of our own racers are instructing and/or running programs. The course my son was at had 5 tracks and about 9 cars per track so around 45 students for the day. In the scheme of total new drivers, not a lot but that is 45 more than would have done that when I was young.

I learned driving skills by watching racing and by riding a bicycle (who has not flicked the bike on dirt and locked the back wheel to come sliding to a glorious halt? If that doesn't teach you how to counter-steer, I don't know what will). That learning was fortunate since my first car was a Corvair. If the bike was counter-steer 101, that car was the 201 level.

I hope everyone passes the word on these classes and they become the standard.

Eric Little

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Originally Posted by marc sproule

i never got any proper defensive driving instruction.....

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I didn't either.

When I was 11 years old, my dad owned a construction company. He said, go get on that front loader (tractor) and start putting one and a half scoops of sand and one scoop of gravel in the hopper of the cement mixer then get off and put two bags of cement in. I said okay, dad and did that for the next 6 summers of my life. Also needed to move that tractor from job site to job site. The tractor was considered 'farm equipment' so it was perfectly legal for me to drive it down the highway. Which I did and only got stopped by one sheriff. He didn't question me driving, just wanted to be sure I wasn't stealing it. So much for 'learning to drive'.

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

We keep changing tests so fewer people fail. They didn't get smarter/better, we just don't asked the tough questions anymore...

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No grades... No scores... No trophies... Everybody is a winner... Everybody is happy... Everything is a right that everyone is entitled to... :mad:

Glenn

" That learning was fortunate since my first car was a Corvair. "

my dad later got a corvair. glasspacks and camber compensator.

great fun and sounded pretty cool too.

Most of us older drivers didn't get any defensive driving courses. I certainly didn't in HS driver training which was primarily geared to passing the drivers test to get your senior license at 17. However learning to drive in Upstate NY (Schenectady) in our famous Winters self taught you very quickly about oversteer and understeer and not colliding with the car skidding at you. ( or you spent a lot of time digging out of snowbanks)
:D

Growing up on the Jersey Shore, many highways had suicide lanes. Learning how to judge oncoming traffic to be able to know whether to wait or make the pass was one of the best exercises in gaining judgement. Unfortunately, it tended to be an exercise in improving the gene pool.

Drove my first car solo at the age of 5. Mom left the car running with me in it as she ran into the grocery store. The car had an automatic so I hopped over to the steering wheel, stood up so I could see where I was going and put into reverse. The car idled out into main street. I put it in drive and idled down the street. Fortunately, the curbs were very high, as I simply drove the car towards the sidewalk to stop it. I only made it about a block, buy what an adventure ! Things weren't so serious in 1958...

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Originally Posted by racerdad2

...... Things weren't so serious in 1958...

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No they weren't. I was 15 1/2 and had a 'learners permit'. Dad took me down to Precision Motors (the one and ONLY foreign car dealer in Tucson). From Morris Minor to Ferrari, if it came from Europe that was where you bought it. Didn't hurt that the owners son was my best friend in high school. Although not my first choice we left the lot with me the very, very proud owner of a 1953 MG-TD! I wanted a Healey 100-6. STILL DO :) But now a 3000 would do fine :) :)

I personally believe that every driver should be required to spin a car (in controlled circumstances) before being issued a license. They need to feel and understand what causes it as well as feel and understand how to control it.

Eric Little

I believe this also why we the US focus on parallel parking is beyond me.

My wife hates it when someone asks me how does a particular tire handle my first response is have you spun the car with the car with these tires? I get confused looks, but how else would you know something you read in a magazine? I also unfortunately scare the hell out of car sales men when I head to a parking lot with a prospective car and do the same thing I look at them and say are you OK I needed to see how well this thing works, wasn't trying to scare the hell out of you is this the first time a client has done this?