Official Response -- FF Challenge Series RULES
Hey everyone... Great Feedback!! I will try to address all the open items as well as give you some concepts behind the decisions. Feel free to contact any of the organizers if you want additional clarifications OR post. We are watching!
Please do not take offense at the initial post, it was meant to lighten the mood on a lot of the more serious topics FF drivers have dealt with over the past decade (plenty of posts here on Apex) while at the same time theme the effort. As you know, sometimes a 'British' humor can be a bit dry. HOWEVER, no offense was meant to any of the FIT engine, Toyo Tire, or Alloy guys.
First ... Why have rules at all? With the recent changes within SVRA and the lack of changes (or snail like pace) of Monoposto; VRG and our series are looking at how best to address the myriad of rules and regulations. Currently we reference several organizations for our rules & regulation, but I think we all agree most are out of date, or changing to fit organizational needs versus the betterment of the group; esp from a vintage/historical POV and the SCCA is just too modern. As such this is a first attempt at this type of effort.
RULE Highlights
-- Yes, NO Honda FIT engines. I am sorry to lose these cars, esp the CF conversions as opposed to the 2016 Pipers. However, as I have stated before we are trying to pay homage to the marque that started this craziness ... that is FORD spec not FIT.
-- Engine Rules updated to 2015 SCCA specification. This was done to ensure alignment with all the engine builders within North America. I think we all agree this is a no brainer.
-- Exceptions do exist to the 2015 SCCA specifications, they are particular to the HF (Historic Ford) and CF (Club Ford) class. This was done to preserve the cars. They do not apply to the FF (Formula Ford) class.
-- Treaded Tires ONLY! I know a lot of you will say Toyo are a treaded tire, but are they really? Without getting into the definition, bottom line once again is our POV and how this series was built. I will note, this is the greatest equalizer for all the various cars built from 1968 through 2016; inclusive of the 'aero' type (think Swift DB1) cars.
That is the high-level, and some concepts... let us address the questions!!
--- WEIGHTS
Thanks everyone for your feedback! This was a troublesome area for us to address. As you will see, the intent was to add a weight penalty in order to bring inline the ~1-3 second gaps between the various classes of cars. With that said!! The FF Challenge Series WILL NOT be weighing cars as part of the series in 2016. ONLY if we started to see a trend of the newer FF or CF cars dominating (considerations applied as to driver and manufacture), would we try to leverage this part of the Rules & Regulation. However, the final #s would be determined by you all, through feedback mechanisms such as this forum or a survey and would not go into affect without a 1 year notice. In the meantime, the rules will be adjusted to reflect only a 25lb weight per class increase.....THANK YOU ALL for bringing this to our attention.
--- FF: Post 1981 third generation with inboard suspension front and rear, NO AERO
Another difficult topic, nice to see everyone catching these same discussion points. Unlike DUFFUS, F1600, and the SCCA we are coming from a Historical perspective and growing upwards. Most of the FIT guys or newer cars have a place to run and although not extremely happy have no desire to give up their slick tires or race atmosphere, this effort is to create a group for those who feel left behind OR want more of a Driver's Club not Race Club type atmosphere. There is NO hard rule on 'aero' versus 'non Aero' other then referencing the Swift DB1. If you feel this is a concern, reach out direct and I will be happy to discuss and/or evaluate the car you are proposing to run.
--- Any chance of this group running the Pittsburgh Vintage GP?
YES!! Not in 2016, but we are already discussing with the PVGP being back in 2017. They have been very receptive to the idea. As many may or may not know, they have a huge FJr event this year. Note - One other key point on calendar, many of the tracks selected for the inaugural year are key historical tracks of significance to Formula Ford. Just something to think about!!
--- In the Club Ford section of eligible makes the Van Diemen chassis are listed as FA 73-81, excluding 75. Should it be RF 73-81?
YES, sorry for the confusion. Definitely a typo on our behalf. The beauty of dealing with a driver's organization is that we can quickly remedy this issue. I will have it addressed by the end of next week. Thanks for your review and comment!
SUMMARY
Thanks again for all the feedback, I hope that I have addressed all the concerns and I look forward to additional feedback (pro or con). The FF Challenge Series team meets weekly and are happy to invite those who would like to influence or assist in this effort...just let me know!
May the 'FORDS' be with you .....
--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC
2016 FF Challenge Series -- RULES updated
just to keep everyone on the same page, some minor changes to the rules were published to align the weight issue - reference above posts and to include the Hoosier specifics. Going forward the rules are located here:
http://vrgonline.org/news/ff_challenge.html
Let me know if you have any questions, and I look forward to seeing you all at our first event in April. VDCA VIR 'Wild Hare'
--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC
Clarification (current status)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rickb99
Cannot imagine why Doug would have a problem with answering you. He's always been very forthright in his opinions about supporting or not supporting stuff. Why wouldn't your 'organization' fit in to the "Independent Racing Organizations" section?
As I stated, I am waiting to hear back. I am sure he will respond. The primary issue is that CF kind of fit in 2 sections: Historic Ford and Formula F. As such we have posted in both. He feels this is a VINTAGE only cause of tire. HOWEVER, since we allow 1x outings for all FF in AS IS we want to offer this to those outside the norm vintage mechanisms. To further complicate we DO ALLOW post 81' cars with KENT motors. It appears that since we do not meet all the SCCA regs (FIT, slicks, etc...) he pushes us back to Vintage; which is not accurate either. Hence the conflict and the reason I wrote (no # to call) for clarification.
--- Christopher Shoemaker
Guess we will agree to disagree ....
Peter - I am sorry but I thought you were smarter then that ... silly guy! Stick with the S2000, if I recall you all had a lot of the same issues a couple of years back. Need a reminder? Since you have no dog in this hunt, I will not say anything further!!
--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tigaman
It IS vintage-only, Chris! Hence, it's properly categorized.
Tire regs, engine regs and the nebulous "no aero" (what was that extended engine cover bodywork on the Zink supposed to do with the air passing over it? ;)) make that pretty clear.
I hate it when one small corner of the sport comes in and address the whole without doing their homework... :blackflag:
You just insist .... Here is the final comment,
I agree .. you stay out of my business and I will yours!
The probation you refer to got you kicked off the committee cause you lied, if you recall. Didn't do your due diligence cause you have no integrity ... but I digress this is about FF
We have reached out and worked with everyone for the new model! Now while I appreciated your OLD CRONIES type approach, MONOPOSTO has been broken for many years. VRG ignited FF in the Northeast and if you think different, it shows how out of touch you are on this matter historically. You do remember VRG? Oh yeah another feather in my cap I guess as a founding father.
VRG is once again, taking up the challenge to increase camaraderie, grid sizes, and value of competition .... I call it evolving; maybe you should take the time to understand before you comment on things that you have no understanding. I know you are scared, we get to big we would not need to mix with S2000, or your friends in the SVRA may lose cars in the NorthEast. BUT please just stick with what you know!
If you choose to comment further, please note I will refrain. However, I will make it a point to say hello at VIR. So just stop, you have no dog in this hunt nor the integrity to come and play in the FF sandbox
--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tigaman
Chris, the Fords awoke long ago. There is good participation across the country and at existing events like VIR in April and the Jefferson in May. I just don't think there is a need for ANOTHER series to potentially dilute entries and muddle the already complicated and varying rules from group to group and region to region.
Why not ally yourself with Monoposto or some other existing vintage program instead of reinventing the wheel? I thought VRG and VDCA had each done well with that approach.
I will not indulge you at VIR, the less we have to do with each other, the better. Off the drivers committee? Yeah, because I helped put YOU on probation for your mistakes... :ha:
Peter ... did you forget about 2016?
Like I said .... happy to discuss at the track, but as always you say a lot but it has no meaning!!
--- Chris
Claryfying the clarification
Peter
I am, as usual, a little slow on the uptake. However, I came to learn over time that if it looks like duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the greater probability is that its a duck. So help me out.
A club Ford is a SCCA regionally described class with different rules for different regions. The commonality is that the cars are monoposto adhering to the SCCA pre 1986 Rules for cars, with outboard suspension at one end - largely cars built between 1973 and 1981. It had, until recently a Ford engine - hence the term Club Ford There is a list of cars that are considered Club Fords. Tires vary by region.
So the Royale rules describe the Club Ford as a Ford engined monoposto adhering to appropriate SCCA requirements and the Group chooses to run treaded tires.
To me sounds suspiciously like an SCCA Club Ford. There are people that cross over from SCCA to VRG using the same Club Ford.
All that is at issue here is how does the Royale Series ensure it is keeping Apexspeed Club Ford owners up to date if it cannot communicate to the Formula F Club Ford section where the Club Ford thread and owners hang out. And why is it so terrible that we should communicate with these guys in the first place?
I fully understand there are influential people on this site with a vested interest in seeing the Royale Series not succeed - but I know I must be paranoid that this issue has arisen.
Would be happy to discuss the rationale for the Series, what it is trying to achieve for Formula Ford owners and the balancing act needed to move it all forward, the discussions with other players etc. As with anything to do with racing, 30 racers will offer 50 positions, all different and get exercised if each position is not agreed with.
Wild Hare entries are up 40% over last year with a month to go - maybe - just maybe Chris is tapping a need. Early indications are the Jefferson will be the best ever with between 30 and 38 entries.
Time will tell.
I still need to understand the logic.
Best
BB