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There is some discussion on bump drafting with different clubs that are involved in FV/F1200 racing here in Canada. Some organizations are strictly against it while others are ok with it?
What's everyone's thoughts? I have not heard anyone against it in the SCCA but I could be wrong.
It is highly frowned upon in SCCA. I remember stewards on their knees checking to see that there was some distance between any 2 cars that were close, nose to tail. It used to be a point of discussion in the pre race drivers meetings.
A lot of the rear shift protectors are designed to be car specific bumpers. Zinks could bump draft Zinks, Lynx to Lynx and so on.
I grew up watching the NE National guys do it & loved it. It's part of why I got into FV.
Bump drafting is standard aspect of pack racing with classes that really rely on drafting. But just like NASCAR, intelligence needs to be used when doing it. If everyone does it right, it makes a killer race.
* straights only
* make sure you are squared up before attaching
* don't slam into them
* back off & give room before the brake zone
I will push shamelessly when I can, but I also generally am on bigger tracks like the Glen & Pocono. I wouldn't do it on a tight track where the car in front of me is constantly changing direction or unsettled. Personally, I have never heard or seen anyone say a word about it to me or anyone else.
GCR 6.11.1.A Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.
To me, it's very clear what the SCCA rules are. There are those who beleive they are above the rules. Everyone knows that I vehemently oppose bump drafting. Not only is it against the rules, it's unsafe and not very sportsman like for two cars to gang up on a single runner to out qualify or pass them.
Bumping results in an considerable advantage over legal drafting.
So in essence, it occurs and Stewards look the other way as technically speaking it is against the rules correct?
Assuming that is the case, then a protest has to be filed. What are the nuances of such a protest?
Say a crew member of car C has video tape from the side of the track clearly showing contact for a few seconds. Car B is pushing Car A. Car B is clearly in breach of the rules, but should/can car A also be protested by car C? Can car A claim the push was not desired from car B?
Brian
Or corner workers could radio race control which cars are doing the pushing and they could then be black flagged ruining their race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
My $.02...
Racing FV in CenDiv since 1995, I've seen and/or been involved in pushing a LOT at RA and at the old long track at Brainerd. I'm not sure it was always considered illegal by SCCA in that time, but it has been for most of that time. When SCCA first started emphasizing that it was not legal and that the rule would be enforced, it reduced the pushing for a while. It's pretty much back now although maybe not quite as blatant.
I gave up pushing after observing a nasty incident which put a car into the concrete wall at full speed at Brainerd when the driver got a bit out of line and was turned. Shortly thereafter, I realized that I'd missed the back of the car I was trying to push and was running up his leading arm instead. I believe the result could have been the same if I hadn't realized my mistake in time. The narrow nose of many modern cars and narrow tails makes it pretty easy to miss. Since then I've never pushed, choosing to either just follow very close or if I have enough of a run, go by.
That said, I know I've benefited from pushes many times. You really can't stop someone from pushing you if they choose to.
My preference would be that pushing wasn't done, but it's next to impossible for SCCA officials to enforce the rule by observation. Most corner workers will never see it since they are stationed near corners where it doesn't happen. The bridge and the occasional mid-straight "station" might see it, but even then, how can they be sure you're not just really close, or slightly overlapped. Unless they put some kind of special tape on our noses and demanded that we return to the pit lane with it intact, it would be difficult to enforce the rule. But even then, what about genuinely accidental light contact that doesn't have any other negative consequence? It happens... Would that automatically have to be deemed a violation of the "no metal to metal" rule?
IMHO, if we really wanted to eliminate it, we would have to self police it somehow.
Bumpdrafting is like having sex in a public place. If it is discreet and consensual, then no one needs to get in trouble. As it becomes obvious, then, at some point, people cannot ignore it, and it becomes a problem. The best way to minimize pushing is to forbid it.
Would certainly explain the guard on my vee. Must weight 10 lbs. of more!
From all the feedback I have received, those who are in favour of bump drafting have a"guide" that it should only be done on a long straight.
The bigger question, what about those that oppose the rule or not "comfortable" being pushed or pushing.
I am not giving an opinion in either direction, but have to be fair to all those that are on the track.
It's pretty common with Spec Miatas too, and I've seen cars with "No bumping" lettered on the rear bumper.
As one that was bumpdrafted in the middle of the kink at Nelson Ledges (it didn't end well) i have some opinions. I've been to a few drivers meetings that the SOM said bump drafting was OK... and others that forbade the practice. I think it should be banned. There are some drivers i would bump or be bumped with no qualms... Then there are drivers that I'm uncomfortable being with on the same track...
At the May weekend in Mosport, 2 cars were black flagged, at different times during a race for bump drafting on the back straight. Called in by corner workers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
At the some time I have seen cars called in for bump drafting, when actually there was no contact but the corner workers could not clearly see that they were just to close together.
The first time I saw lots of pushing was at the 1969 pro FV race at Daytona in 1969. There were large groups of people pushing all around the Tri Oval (pre bus stop days) at times 8 to 10 cars with no visible space between them and the a scramble to enter turn 1. Being from Chicago I ran a lot at Road America and IRP where pushing was almost essintial to stay near the front. Once at a drivers meeting at RA the Chief Steward said he wanted to see at least 3" between cars and one driver spoke up and said in FV that's 3 places. The only way it will stop is if you can prove it makes you slower.
In all Honesty its a form of cheating....3 drivers on last lap....two decide to help each other bump drafting (Pushing) gives an unfair advantage, drafting obviously is OK. Occasionally there will be contact in drafting but thats going to happen, also as someone posted earlier it can have an unhappy ending.
If you mean bump/hitting I don't like that one bit and have had to tell those who did it to me to not do that again. But push drafting is in my opinion different and OK if done correctly. It can be used to get away from the pack which can be dangerous to run in or to catch up if something happened that you fell back.
After being an equipment operator and operating scrapers for many years, it became an acquired skill need to get the job done. But like racing it had people who didn't do it safely. When I was first stating out I had a dozer operator who would hit me hard every time he pushed me and it was to say the least uncomfortable. Another dozer operator told what to do to stop this guy from doing it and I did, which was stopping but not lowering the cutting edge into the dirt and wait until just before he hit and put my machine into reverse and hit him before he hit me. Well needless to say after almost putting the dozer operator on the hood of his machine he never hit me again.
So if done safely I never had a problem with it and don't have an issue with it either.
Ed
This is an interesting conversation and it says something about how folks view rules as well. I simply raise my fist when someone pushes me. Most of the folks with whom I run understand my position and don't push me. I was offered push while chasing down Michael V. at the sprints and waived it off. I was later rewarded with the win in spite of not pushing.
Generally, turn workers call in pushing incidents and the stewards will pursue. Drivers are really the first line of defense. As most folks that know me will tell you, I'm not shy and if I have an issue with someone's driving, they seldom have to wait to find out. If after having a conversation with the driver and the issue continues, I will write a protest if any contact appears to be intentional.
There was a time in this sport when folks didn't approve of this kind of activity. If you were to be passed, you took it like a man and tried to get the spot back. Blocking and intentional hitting just wasn't tolerated. Maybe I'm too old, but to my generation a rule was a rule. Nowadays, many folks rationalize which rules they wish to follow and do what they please. Maybe I could use some of the logic used on this thread and justify stealing something out of your garage as long as I do it carefully and on a long straight.:D
Sword swallowing if done correctly can be safe too :)
After reading all of this it is crystal clear to me that bump drafting is illegal as per the rule book and thus if someone is penalized for doing so they don't have a leg to stand on.
Whether you think it is ok or not, as per the rules it is illegal.
I don't think there would ever be a way for SCCA, CASC, or other amateur racing organizations to approve this and be well and good with their insurers.
Pretty simple for me to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bamford
Direct, concise and well said.
I agree completely.
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Bill Mitchell
I'll offer three perspectives on bump drafting. As a corner worker it's difficult to see. If we do see it, we're required to have two witnesses to sign. If only one of us sees it (on a two man corner) then the stewards may listen but it won't carry as much weight. Essentially they'll advise everyone to keep an eye on it.
As a rescue worker, I don't like it, having had to pick up the pieces from bump drafting gone wrong.
As a racer I haven't yet experienced it, but I would hope people wouldn't do it. That being said not everyone on the track thinks about what they are doing. Maybe chalk it up to over aggressive driving. I have been on the receiving end of poor decisions by other drivers, let's not add bump drafting to the arsenal they already have.
In the FV races at Daytona in the late 60's and early 70's, bump drafting was the norm.
It was not just 2 cars but would include many cars, all in physical contact with each other. It was generally groups of single make cars competing with another make of cars.
This might be an issue at the run offs.
I guess anyone posting video evidence is worried about getting sanctioned! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mblanc
I want videos of Steve sword swallowing...
I have followed this thread with interest. I wanted to wait until after our events at Watkins Glen last weekend to post what we have done with F1600, F2000 and Atlantic championship events.
Bump drafting is illegal, period. If a Series official witnesses it, the pusher is DQ'd from the next race regardless of what session (test, practice, qualifying, race) it occured in. If the pusher is pushing a teamate, its DQ and suspension from an additional race. The teamate is likely to also be penalized.
We made the rules draconian to insure it isn't done anymore. To my recollection, almost everybody listened, and no one was seen doing it- the staff was watching including our race director up on a sky crane over the back straight. It proved the racing can be just as close without it.