Zink Questions

Hello all,
Finally back stateside and working on my Zink restoration again.
Little background, purchased a Zink a while back and have been slowly preparing it for vintage FV racing when not deployed.
I've recently run into an issue of fitting the fan shroud and charging system.
The fan shroud was making contact with the rear support bars for the main hoop. I did a little hammering to an old damaged shroud and managed to get enough clearance as shown in the below pictures.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps84ab8aad.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...psd4d978b5.jpg

Now however, I've see to have discovered another issue. When mounting the generator, the pulley and shaft isn't going to clear the firewall, seat belt mount, or original throttle cable pivot point.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...psca41ee59.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps57c19873.jpg

I am aware I'm using a 12v generator which is a little longer than the original 6v generator, but even using an offset pulley will cause the belt to make contact with the throttle cable pivot point when lined up with the lower pulley.

From the other pictures I've seen of Zinks online, there should be no need to clearance the fan shroud to clear the frame tubes and while a tight fit, the generator pulley should have no issues clearing the firewall area.

I'm currently taking a step back to figure out the space issues. Is it possible the engine mounts are spacing the entire engine/transaxle too close to the firewall? I do know they are not original.

My current solutions include either rebuilding the engine mounts (worried about clearance between the top of the transaxle and trapezoid) or installing spacers between the frame and trapezoid (little nervous about the frame strength with this idea)

Any suggestions?

Thank you,
George

George, check my reply on the FV site.

Barry

You are missing a piece in the generator assembly. as you have the picture now you have the fan flush with the forward edge of the fan shroud. there is actually a sheet metal piece that attaches to the back of the generator which then bolts to the fan shroud. The fan only pulls air from the rear opening in the shroud. In reality you have your generator too far forward.

Most zink do have an access bubble on the firewall to clear the fan pully - it can get quite close to the shoulder harness bracket.

When installing a fan shroud and generator onto a zink it can be difficult to get the shroud down and through the frame rails - it will tend to sit forward.

You will just need to insert but not tighten the the fasteners that hold the fan shroud to the cylinder tins - sometimes it helps to keep the fasterners for the cylinder tins loose too.

After you get the generator sitting on the pedestal often you will need to use some sort of pry bar against the roll hoop to move the generator rearward to align it with the crank pulley.

If you are using the resting position of the fan shroud on the cylinder tin to set your generator position then you will likely never get the generator pulley aligned with the crank pully. this is the critical alignment. You need to let the positions and angles of the fan shroud and the cylinder tin flex to accommodate the pulley position.

Thank you both for the replies.

Barry,
I responded on .org.

Mark,
I obtained the 12v generator backing plates last night. Today's project will be removing the engine/transaxle and assembling everything apart from the car. From there I'll fit everything back together once we've verified the pulleys are aligned correctly.
I'm not sure I follow your mentioning the fan shroud would tend to sit forward. My initial fitting prior to modifying the shroud, had the shroud tilted back due to pressure from the main hoop supports.

I think you are not going to be able to make your setup work if the generator is not exactly the size of the original 6 volt generator. And that is diameter and length.

I would put the car together with what was standard and gut the generator as was common by 1970.

If you want a 12 Volt charging system, I would add a alternator something like what is used in FC today. What I use is from Kubota lawn tractors and was the least expensive setup I could find. It also works great. If you have a late model case with the threaded bosses on the front, you have the perfect place to mount the dynamo.

Steve,

Monoposto rules for vintage FV require a working VW fan and generator - either 12 V or 6V. There are plenty of stock 12V working generators on cars running on early zink cars in VSCDA and VDCA. The 6 V does save some weight and is more than capable of charging a 12V battery at the engine speeds the vintage vees run - so it is a good choice.

The generator does tend to sit forward and often you have to lever it backwards - no matter how the fan shroud "looks" when sitting on the engine.

Also the reproduction cylinder tin and fan shrouds tend to NOT fit as well as the old German tin. This may be contributing to your problem.

Mark

I stand corrected. I am not that familiar with all the rules of the various organizations every one is racing under.

I did own and race 2 of the original Zink FVs, a '69 and a '73. So I have some familiarity with this model Zink FV.

Sorry Steve,

well aware of your history and knowledge of these vehicles. The Monoposto rules cling to the fan requirement - which is good as it tends to limit engine RPM and increase durability. The requirement for a functioning generator is more tradition than anything else,


The last two paragraphs should have been directory towards the original poster. sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark_Silverberg

Sorry Steve,

well aware of your history and knowledge of these vehicles. The Monoposto rules cling to the fan requirement - which is good as it tends to limit engine RPM and increase durability. The requirement for a functioning generator is more tradition than anything else,


The last two paragraphs should have been directory towards the original poster. sorry for the confusion.

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I have in my barn original Zink FV and Z10 frames that are reasonable prospects for building into complete cars. Maybe the prices of these cars will tempt me someday to do more than store them.

Steve,

A question, seems I recall or maybe you have mentioned, the tail on my old Zink was from the Z10. Is that correct? Just curious.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...V/DSC_0104.jpg

That tail was made by a guy who worked for me a couple years. He previously worked for McLaren in England. At the time we were building both Z10 FF and Z12 FV. The tail was done for the FV first but that was only incidental as the part was for both cars.

Chuck Brewer still produces parts from the original mold. The original part was aluminum and we made the mold from that.

Thanks Steve, good to know who can still make them.

It wasn't completely an off the thread question as George's car came with this tail.

This is what a Zink frame kinda looked LIKE right guys??? Except rear roll looks a little high for the times...

http://www.subrew.com/tmp/frame1.jpg

Everything added in your frame was added is an attempt to comply with newer SCCA rules (which is what started the down fall of FORMULA VEE). If your going vintage Monoposto racing rules ... YOU SHOULD CUT OUT OR MODIFY the chassis so it looks like what the stock chassis really looked like :mad:

The the fan/generator will fit correctly once you back date the frame... :thumbsup:

Thank you very much for all the information. I "think" it may be solved after using the information you all provided as well as speaking to Dietmar about my issues.
I assembled everything using the "adjusted" shroud but focusing on the pulley alignment. It does put a little strain on the shroud, but doesn't seem to cause any issues as the fan makes no contact with the shroud and the pulleys themselves appear to be aligned. It is very possible the aftermarket shroud is slightly wider than the original German tins. Using a straight edge between the middle firewall bar and the headrest brace, it also appears the generator pulley will clear. I'll still need to fabricate an upper firewall with an access hatch but that shouldn't be an issue.
Dietmar was able to verify the 12V generator is about 1" longer when measuring from the generator backing plate to the tip of the pulley end of the shaft.

Below are some photos from shortly before I stopped for the day but before everything was tightened up completely. Please ignore the incorrect pulley nut, I'll be stopping by my local VW shop tomorrow for the correct parts.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps53c80567.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps2810fffd.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps29d3111f.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...psb6030c5f.jpg

PROBLEMS "may be solved after using the information you all provided as well as speaking to Dietmar about my issues"

Dietmar is the only guy right now who cares about getting real real VEE's BACK ON track and racing!!!

THANK YOU D!

Quote:

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This is what a Zink frame kinda looked LIKE right guys???

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No. Doesn't look like a Zink.

Quote:

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The the fan/generator will fit correctly once you back date the frame

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George's frame looks like a standard Zink except for the forward roll bar braces and the added steering hoop. None of that is causing his issues and add, IMO, to the safety of the car. I see no need to go back...


I don't know that Dietmar is the "only guy", but he has been a huge help to me. I've had plenty of help from a lot of other people as well. I would recommend Dietmar to anyone that needs help/advice or parts.

George,

I cannot tell for certain from the pictures, but it looks like the pulley may interfere with your seat belt mounting. Don't forget that...

Personally I'd ditch the 12 volt generator and go to the 6v. You can still run a 12v system. I may be wrong since it has been a long time since I measured the output of the 6v generator, but as I recall it would put out 8-9 volts at our rpm anyway, and should suffice. The voltage regulator could be adjusted up as well if I remember correctly. In reality, you only need the generator to satisfy the vintage rules, the battery should be more than enough on its own.

Barry

6V generator is more that sufficient to run a 12 V charging system at racing speeds. It is best to think of the generators as low capacity and high capacity.

the 6V generator will charge a 6V system at idle - but has more than sufficient voltage output to charge a 12V system above 3000 rpm.

the 12 V generator is putting out way more than 12V at the same RPM.


The voltage regulator determines what actually is sent back into the vehicle


Both Deitmar and Bob Shedd in Grand Rapids know the vintage zink cars inside and out.

You should be able to get any question answered between the two.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice and help. Managed to get a few more things sorted and get it fired up a few weeks ago. Below is the 2nd trip around the block with my son. First trip lost the throttle cable at the end of the street. He was a bit disappointed in the speed while idling in 1st gear just to get back to the driveway. 2nd trip went much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J44RC0NJiWs

Congratulations good work, hope this will be the first of many "victory laps"!:checkered:

that kinda sorta maybe looks like an Autodynamics frame to me, kinda sorta