Suzuki vs Kawasaki

I'm going to open up the engine debate again, as we had an opportunity to see how the Kawasaki powerplant would fair against the traditional Suzuki GSXR setup at the runoffs.

I am happy that Coop was able to walk away from his accident, but saddened by the extent of the damage he has to deal with. He was only a few seconds off the fastest lap time during the first practice, and I am quite sure he would have improved his lap times, but how much?

The point is, is it really worth going to the Kawasaki ZX10R? I think it is. Thanks to Glenn and a few dedicated guys on the left coast that did all the R&D to make this happen, it is becoming an affordable alternative to the dwindling Suzuki plants.

The other point is that a lot of people out there were anticipating this unfair advantage of this engine. SIR's and increased weight, etc. I don't think it is here at this time.

I said on a previous post to wait and see, and it looks like the Suzuki can compete with the Kawasaki. The main difference right now is the future and availability of these engines. I am sure that the Kawasaki cars will go faster, but that will take time as experience and the natural R&D evolves this whole thing.

My question is: If you were going to build a new FB, would you build it around the traditional Suzuki, or go "all in" on the Kawasaki?

Good luck to everyone at RA this week!:thumbsup::beer::D

I started my Kawi build two years ago, had a bit of an excess "heat" issue, and now the Kawi is going back in. IMO, the restrictors are a wrong solution in search of a non-existent problem. But the newer Kawi's are not built in very large numbers and they are heavy. And George finally sent my ECU back after having it for 15 months! Seems the ECU issue is solved.

I've heard the Kawis are difficult to shift, even with the Geartronics......any feedback from anyone ? And, Glenn, glad you are ok,...sorry about your ride .

Regards,
Bill

We're currently building Suzuki and Kawasaki powered Phoenix Race Works chassis side by side. The Kawasaki presents some interesting design hurdles over the Suzuki.

I've been told that shifting the Kawasaki is less than ideal but I believe the pneumatic shifters take care of that problem.

We thrive on a design challange. We're currently machining dry sump Kawasaki pans for the PRW chassis. Wet sump pan coming soon.

Good for you on the wet sump Gary. That is quite a challenge.

I built my Kawi manual shifter rod system just like I did on the R1 with the same leverage/fulcrum moments, and the few laps I got in revealed that the Kawi needs more movement at the hand for the correct feel. The shifter I built felt a bit numb compared to the R1.

we have been running the zx10r in our Stohr/BRD car for 1 year now and find shifting to be just fine. the one thing we have learned that makes shifting perhaps a little more cumbersome is the fact that you do a little more shifting then you do with the suzuki due to the extremely close ratio gear box. we run a very high grade cable and well engineered bump shift system and have it working quite well. still working out a few kinks in the newly installed Flatshifter expert. i have several customers around the world that are running the BRD dry sump on this engine, as well as Glenn, Larry, Rob and of course us, and it works flawlessly. some of the European series that i supply kits to have already started pouring in more orders as they get ready for next season, so apparently the engine is catching on. as far as weight goes, i would say weigh one your self and see what you think complete power plant for complete power plant. our Stohr/BRD comes in right at 1000lbs with a 205-210lb driver/gear with dry sump. that is with seat in, radio, 1/2gal fuel, so true race ending weight(last race was 1008 w/1.5gal pumped out after) these engines are starting to become more and more available, so i think a good viable engine moving forward. i think both engines have their merits, suzuki has good strong torque, kawi strong top end. if i had an empty engine bay, and both a suzuki and a kawi sitting on the floor, and i am headed to the runoffs, i choose the kawi, with a BRD dry sump of course ;)

another engine that is oddly overlooked is the 08-10 zx10r. i have played with these and see around 192hp with a simple flash, and these are very reliable engines. guys in europe and australia that have switched out k8 gsxr engines for these report them to be a superior engine to the gsxr.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by urbanimports02

another engine that is oddly overlooked is the 08-10 zx10r. i have played with these and see around 192hp with a simple flash, and these are very reliable engines. guys in europe and australia that have switched out k8 gsxr engines for these report them to be a superior engine to the gsxr.....

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do you find that an easier swap from a gsxr is to an 08-10 kawi or the newer ones?

i would for most guys. the newest engines have the clutch quite high, so it mounts in the car a bit different whereas the 08-10 motor is shaped more similarly to a gsxr. but for a citation guy, the newest motors would be easiest since i have already done a custom dry sump pan for the citations, and you already have Rob whom has installed one. i think guys overlook the 08-10 because it was said that it didnt make much more power then the 06-07 zx10 which is true before you flash the ecu. 06-07 makes 175hp with a good race exhaust. the 08-10 is a direct bolt in replacement for a 06-07 zx10. the 08-10 had a similar ignition retard and secondaries closing down in high rpm just like the 11+ engine. the 08-10 zx10 is the lightest weight of the bunch, but absolutely will not run with a wet sump, so i would say the gsxr is still the outright lightest since many guys run them wet sump.

The new Kawi lump went in easy for me because I had built the right side subframe around the high clutch in the R1. That was a straight fit / re-use. Unfortunately, I had to rebuild the left side though!

Ok Jesse,

You have these two engines sitting on the floor. The Suzuki with a wet sump, and the Kawasaki with your dry sump. How much taller is the kawi?

when you mount the zx10r in the chassis with the oil pan mating surface at a 7-8 degree angle (which i recommend to everyone that inquires) and the front of the pan 1.25" off the floor(thickness of my pan), they are almost identical(kawi slightly lower in fact). it is best to install it this way for several reasons.
1) that is how it is in the bike, only a steeper angle(10 degrees or so)
2) it puts the exhaust ports in almost the exact position as the gsxr thus headers become reusable.
3) puts the sprocket in just about the right place
4) rear 2 engine mount bolts become close to perfectly inline vertically(@7 degrees)

coop used this method only i think he reused the forward mounts holes in his chassis which lifted the motor a bit in the chassis. ie, more then 1.25" off the floor in the front. solved some major re-design dilemmas. this angle also helped me to design a much simpler dry sump system in which the oil inlet line comes under the oil pan and the fitting can be bolted on to either point left or right making it a more universal kit. it also nets a kit with $1595 retail including the custom filter adapter that places the filter on the front of the block with no external oil lines. it really is a slick kit!

Thanks- sending you a PM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by urbanimports02

when you mount the zx10r in the chassis with the oil pan mating surface at a 7-8 degree angle (which i recommend to everyone that inquires) and the front of the oil pan mating surface/part line 1.25" off the floor(thickness of my pan), they are almost identical(kawi slightly lower in fact). it is best to install it this way for several reasons.
1) that is how it is in the bike, only a steeper angle(10 degrees or so)
2) it puts the exhaust ports in almost the exact position as the gsxr thus headers become reusable.
3) puts the sprocket in just about the right place
4) rear 2 engine mount bolts become close to perfectly inline vertically(@7 degrees)

coop used this method only i think he reused the forward mounts holes in his chassis which lifted the motor a bit in the chassis. ie, more then 1.25" off the floor in the front. solved some major re-design dilemmas. this angle also helped me to design a much simpler dry sump system in which the oil inlet line comes under the oil pan and the fitting can be bolted on to either point left or right making it a more universal kit. it also nets a kit with $1595 retail including the custom filter adapter that places the filter on the front of the block with no external oil lines. it really is a slick kit!

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I'm not sure how I missed this thread, probably was really busy w/ something ;O)

I weighed an '08 Suzook, bare engine and starter only, and did the same for the '11 and up Kaw - damn near the same number. It looks heavier, but the scale pad differs

The front of my Kaw engine is maybe 1/4" off the engine bay floor pan, so no big whoop.

I am shooting to have the car repaired in time to make the ARRC in 5 weeks.
EVERYTHING that is even slightly suspect will be replaced with new.
I pick up the car tomorrow morning, and by nightfall it will be stripped down to the last bolt...

The shifting with the Geartronics is pretty crisp. There are a few things that can be done, but hand shifting a Kawi w/ the eng off is an exercise in futility, whereas the same thing on the 'zook is a breeze.

I have connections on low mile engines, and the Suzook's were getting hard to find in good donor quality - low enough hours to successfully be refreshed as opposed to rebuilt (MUCH larger parts bill).
In fact over the last year, the definition of "low mile '08 GSXR" has changed dramatically, pretty much meaning 13-15k miles.

Intake valves might run ya around a hun/ea., so by adding that 16 hun by itself gets you right upto Kaw money pretty much.

Invest in a dry sump from Jessie and get much lower oil temp, a few ponies by the crankcase vacum, and a few pounds - whoop-de-doo, loose some (body)weight...