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Thought I'd post this up for Allan Adderley (Silver Bullet guy in Florida). Apparently, he has made a Silver Bullet body conversion to fit the Citation (and or Speed Sport Citation clone). Citation FV's were never known as being aero superior, but were known for fitting big drivers and great handling. Looks like Allan came up with an aero solution.
Sweet.
That looks really good.
Nice! Makes me wish I still had mine... :(
That looks so cool!
First time I heard that if I can recall there was a citation running in the top 10 this year at the runoffs with all those fancey aero superior carsQuote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bonow
Where is the bell crank steering on the car in the picture?
Also that nose is looking more SpeedSport looking like Michaels car and is not pointed like the other silver bullet bodies.
Yea but that Citation in the Runoffs isn't the norm... with Andy's driving skill and his brothers wizardry, they could make a square box go fast! Just think what a little better Aero could do!! ;)
If I would have said it was a vortec everyone says it's the car when I say a old citation with "not superior aero" someone says it's the driver and the prepper. :rolleyes:
I have heard many times you need a Vortec to win the runoffs which we have seen this also not true.
Just about everyone at the runoffs is a exceptial driver and must have exceptial prepping skills
It would certainly be interesting to see how the exhaust and the steering were treated on that car...
Paul
Not sure if Allan reads here often, but since I have been in contact with him regarding his Citation program I'll supply a couple answers.
The steering is mounted upside down with the steering arm facing forward, similar to a Womer. The Citation bellcranks are gone on this version. There may be another version later with the bellcranks kept.
The exhaust is a new Roxannes, designed to replace the original Citation design with the front primary exiting beside the valve cover. The new one is similar to most other cars with the front primary's exiting under the cyl head.
It really looks nice. Two SB bodied cars were in the top 10 this year, Blanarik (3rd) and Davis (8th).
Barry
Allan has a bunch of pictures of the steering arrangment if your interested I'm sure he would email them to you. I don't want to publish without his consent but his email is:
adderleyp@gmail.com
I have been following this project as well and just got my new exhaust from JR that will work with this conversion (so I hopefully do it soon!) and it fits really well. :thumbsup:
What a striking car. It certainly updates that "dated" FV look to more modern and flow efficient models. Another beautiful example of Allan's thoughtful and precise engineering.
The Citation I owned at one point had the National record at Daytona by the previous
owner, and Daytona is considered an aero track as much as anywhere else.
Mark
92' Protoform P-1
Mark X 2,
Please re-read my post. Maybe my wording was not clear enough, but I did not say the Citation FV was bad areodynamically. I said it was never known as being aero superior. The meaning of that statement was that most FV were marketed for having some strong area of claim. Cars like the Vortech, Protoform, Caracal "D", VDF, Mysterian, ect were marketed as being "slippery" while cars like the Vector and Citation were marketed as being great handling cars and roomy for larger drivers.
The simple fact is that the difference in aero drag between most FV's is minimal at best. I've owned (2) Citations, rented (1) Citation for a season and watched a number of people win the June Sprints with them. They are just as good as anything else out there. As with any racecar, prep level, racecraft and money are key to any winning program.
Allan made a wonderful body that fits a Citation. However, if his new body gets one more dead FV out of someones garage and back on the track, then I think its wonderful thing and is worth posting about here. I'm hopeful that you will agree.
Thank you for the clarification Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bonow
I do like this version much better than the other SB bodies I like the more rounded nose.
Not much point in having a Citation without having Citation steering :confused:
Bill, I feel that you have short changed Allan by saying "big deal", he built a body for a Citation. Allan has gone to great lenghths to prove the aero-efficiency of his bodies by documenting their benefits in the wind tunnel. Would be nice to give credit to those who keep trying to push the "envelope" in such a limited class.
OK, looks like a no win for the guy posting news of new stuff for old cars.
Bob, I've changed the post to be less offensive to those that are easily offended. I kinda thought that starting a thread to talk about the new bodywork was giving credit to Allan, but obviously I was mistaken.
Greg, love to comment on your steering comment, but I'll just offend another. Better off to say nothing.
Unfortunately, perception has many different interpretations. Sorry that you feel that way. No offense intended.
Not sure why anyone would call that short changing Allan in any way.:) I have no idea how much or little the change in bodywork will benifit the Citation, but it certainly looks nice and Silver Bullet bodied cars have done quite well on the track. It is certainly a nice option for Citation owners...Quote:
Looks like Allan came up with an aero solution.
Barry
Gee Bill, that was your post. I can't believe that you cant see how demeaning that was to Citation and Alan. :confused: :confused:Quote:
Citation FV's were never known as being aero superior, but were known for fitting big drivers and great handling. Looks like Allan came up with an aero solution.
Stop posting these rude things. :D
Got an email from Larry Campbell that sums it all up, no good deed goes unpunished.Quote:
Originally Posted by sracing
I'll try to stay south of here for the winter :D
Bill:
Thank you for sharing this, otherwise a lot of us wouldn't have known there was an option for the Citation. I like the lines of the body and Larry makes an awesome car. As Larry said no good deed goes un-punished. You will always have people that will defend their style of car to the bitter end and I tend to be that way, but when a new widget comes along I am interested to see what it can do.
Thanks again
G.
JMHO
There is no doubt that some Vee (bodys) have an edge over others re: aerowork. Anyone who has followed Vee racing for 20+ years knows that the driver and set-up is 90%. Most every style has finished in the top 3 at the run-offs, have held track records and won lots of nationals. I always liked the Citation (XTC and Lazer) for ease of maintenance and performance. I once saw one that won 6 straight nationals (in CenDiv), Qual 3rd at the Run-Offs and lead the race for a while. :(. The Citation with that body, looks like good match.
I still like beleive you could put one of the top 5 drivers in a FormCar and see them still finish in the top 5. :)
OK,how many ancient relics on here remember Bob Cornish in about '86 taking Petunia the Formcar to the runoffs and finishing about 7th to prove Jim's point. Good driver,good motor,good enough?
Bob,
I understand Jim's and your post, but that was 27 years ago and prior to the
Vortechs, Protoforms, Caracal D's, Mike V's and other more aero cars that
would prevent the "Petunia" from finshing in the top half of the field regardless
of who was driving. Maybe at M-O it would finish higher, but as it stands at RA,
I doubt it but who knows? Maybe we can talk Mike V. into running a Formcar this
year to give everyone else a chance and see how he does? :)
Mark
Interestingly,Cornish left his Caracal D at home to run Petunia. There were plenty of "razor cars" as they were then known in the field. The difficulty was getting away. Staying in the pack was required.
Sorry Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
But Bob Cornish ran Petunia after a similar aero debate as in '84 he ran his Caracal D (in original "super skinny" form) at Road Atlanta. In '85 he ran Petunia all season long and qualified (back when that really had meaning) to go and raced against other "slipstreamers" of the day (like Steve Knapp in the L-85 Laser).
Here is the best part..... you know who one that year, Scott Rubenzer in a Citation 85v
Cornish ran Petunia in 83 and his D-car 84, 85, 86.
Its the 70s you were supposed to have forgotten.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...rivers-a-e.pdf
Bill,
I looked up the car "Petunia" and the photo's of it in the early sixties didn't
come close to it's appearance in the early 80's. The car originally had a sit-up
driving position, and over time it became similar to a D-13, plus the tail was
change to one also similiar to a D-13, so to say an early 60's vee finished 7th
at the runoff's without any updates is a misnomer. The car wouldn't have been
recognizable to the original owner!
Mark
If it had had the original rear suspension, it would have been 10 secs a lap off the pace ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
It is a great story though, which I am sure has been, and will be, told and argued over for many decades.
Greg,
I agree and just wanted to clarify it's changing condition over the years.
It was an interesting story!
Mark
P.S.: It reminds me of Stu Delaney running his D-13 at RA in 2011.
Ah yes, way off again :confused: Thanks for setting the record straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by problemchild
Damn those internet sites and their correct-ness.
So, what have we proven here today?
That we should be working more and posting less? :D:beer:
We took to many drugs in the 70s,our memory isnt the same Phil..err I mean Dave..oops! I mean Bill.;):rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bonow
That anyone could take a 1960's unicorn to the runoffs and have a shot at the podium! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bonow
Having owned a Citation Speedsport for a few years now makes this a very interesting concept. Would like to see one on track and up close. I do like the ideas.
I traveled and qualified with Bob Cornish during those years and actually crewed for him one year at Atlanta, Unless my mind has failed me completely, Petunia was a virgin and ran the Runoffs in original configuration. Last I heard, it still is in the same condition. Mark, if you can send me a link to the picture you are referring to, I'll check it out.
I do recall that car having an amazing engine and it ran sans fan shroud and contemporary exhaust system.
Bob did a great job of hanging with the group and was one of the outstanding drivers to come from the West. Even today, a well driven older car can hang in a crowd, but don't expect to get away or pull out and pass.
It's off topic, but Brian has the same memory as I do. Here is two photos of Petunia. One in original Formcar Mk 1 configuration and the second the current configuration.
I do recall that for the '83 Runoffs, the car did have the fan removed. The fan was later replaced to put the car back into vintage configuration.
To me as I recall the car, other than moving the seating position, the mods (especially bodywork) are pretty limited.