Electrical Wiring???

Seems to me there were a few previous threads on wiring our cars... can't find them.

And I think Russ sent me a drawing, but that is long gone.

So how do we wire these cars?

What gauge wiring? Battery to emergency cutoff switch to ground???

Emergency cutoff switch in neg (ground) or positive?

I was going to use a relay to keep the thicker wires short, but the rules seem to say that the main wires have to go through the cutoff switch.

So - wiring is the next project on my car...

Citations usually have the cutoff switch on the dash with a pull cable in the usual place (right rear rollhoop) rigged to that cutoff switch. I haven't decided which way to go yet.

Thanks,

Rob

Check with Keith Averill as he sells complete harnesses built by Ray Grienke for a variety of applications. Ray's harnesses are first class, use the best wiring, shrink wrap, switches, etc.. He does the wiring on the Audi R10 Alms cars so you get an idea of the quality of his work. My 2 cents. They have a worksheet that you fill out that lets them know what connections you need and then he builds it for the one-offs. You guys may want to get together if you are using similar powerplants and have one master one created.

"main wires have to go through the cutoff switch." I assume GSXR 1K, though zx10R which I have is wired the same.

Define "main" wires. I use breaker type switches of 30 and 20 amps from aircraft spruce. I run 12 gauge wire from the battery, through one switch at the rollbar, then to a second on the dash that powers the ignition and terminal strip (essentially a buss bar). From the buss bar I have a push button switch for the starter solenoid and a smaller 20 amp breaker switch for the high and low pressure fuel pumps. The voltage regulator gets wired to the alternator (3 wires), battery positive, and ground. It does NOT need to be switched, and will not drain the battery. Depending on year of GSXR, the regulator may have two ground and two positive outputs. These can be tied together and connected to ground and battery. Make sure that all the regulator plugs are clean and tight as there is a lot of current going through them and they have been known to burn up if the resistance gets too high.

If you need an engine harness modified, call George Dean. He will just need your donor harness, though he might be able to supply one if he has extras available.

Thanks guys... I think I've got the main wiring figured. DW sent me a copy of his, which I will use as a guide.

I'll retain the Citation dash mounted cutoff switch and run the ground through it. Except for the engine harness, the rest is pretty straightforward. George Dean will have to help with that.

I picked up some good switches at Aircraft Spruce...

When you say run the ground through the switch, do you mean the entire ground path, including the starter through the switch? If thats the case, typically, those kinds of switches that are heavy duty enough to carry that much current are not that reliable (and made in England, a red flag if I've ever seen one). I've seen many master switches that isolate the battery from the rest of the car die. Of course, while they were dieing, they were only momentarily failing, which was causing all sorts of intermittent random problems. Get rid of them as there isn't a requirement for the master to isolate the battery from the rest of the car.

Section 9.3.33 of the GCR:

"The master switch shall be installed directly in either battery cable and shall cut all electrical circuits but not an on-board fire system".

Seems pretty clear to me...

Thanks for all the comments.

Rob

I guess we have a difference of opinion here. My master switch is installed in a battery cable, and it does cut off all electrical circuits. The engine will shutdown if the master is turned off.

Ted - thanks for the comments. I'm not sure we have a difference of opinion. Probably more a "failure to communicate".

I'd rather run the heavy cable from the battery directly to the starter motor than through the master cutoff. My thought was to use a starter relay wired from the main ignition switch... and the battery negative could go directly to ground.

The main cutoff could switch off power to the main ignition switch on the dash - and because of the relay - isolate the engine and its harness.

But then all that would not meet the GCR spec. I guess I don't understand how you are wired.

The Citations have a unique wiring system that I have not seen before or since & personally I really like it!
They place the starter solinoid within inched of the battery. It is hard wired to the battery. there is a lower 10 guage (or so) wire that goes from the battery positive terminal to a aircract grade toggle switch that is the kill switch & that feeds back to feed the dash. So the only battery guage cable that is hot is only a few (under 6) inches long & the long legth from the solinoid to the starter is only live while starting the car.
In my humble opinion I see the advantage that if you somehow manage to short the hot side of the kill switch lead (from the battery to the kill switch) a 10 guage wile will burn out & break faily quickly. Where as in most cars the battery cable guage wire would hold the amperage & creat a dangerouly hot, fire potential.

That works great unless the solenoid is on the starter itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

That works great unless the solenoid is on the starter itself.

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Still works. You wire the solenoid at the starter to the starter switch or the power cable. The solenoid at the battery controls the power supply. Also the master switch brakes the ground. The ground wire travels from the battery under the driver's legs to the dash mounted master switch. The Switch at the roll hoop is a remote operated cable to the dash mounted switch.

So... the only time the big #4 gauge wire from the front solenoid (next to the battery) to the solenoid on the starter (next to the motor) is energized (hot) is when the starter button is engaged.

Neat. I like it.

Do you just use any 60's Ford under hood solenoid, or a special one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

So... the only time the big #4 gauge wire from the front solenoid (next to the battery) to the solenoid on the starter (next to the motor) is energized (hot) is when the starter button is engaged.

Neat. I like it.

Do you just use any 60's Ford under hood solenoid, or a special one?

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Any one will do but be careful how you mount the relay/solenoid. You can spend a lot more and use an aircraft type.

Froggie:

I always bought the Ford unit because they were rated for continual useage and less prone to shake apart over time, but any grade will do.

I wired a vintage car like this when I was having continual starter solenoid failures on the Hitachi starter motor. About half the time they would fail stuck on. I wired through the external solenoid I still had on the car from when it had lucas starter, and if the Hitachi solenoid failed I had a better chance of making the session and fixing it later. Plus I could borrow my buddies spare Lucas starter. I think it's a really great idea, actually.

Brian

I like the simplicity of my RF78, a full current starter "button" in the dash from a land rover. No external solenoid to fail.
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

That works great unless the solenoid is on the starter itself.

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Doesn't apply to this discussion. Since this is a FB section, and all the motors discussed in this thread are motorcycle based, you should know that no bike motor has a solenoid on the starter.

Sounds like we're all talking about the same basic wiring scheme. A much wiser friend of mine who first proposed this setup went to tech to check its legality. The tech inspector decided that not having the heavy gauge wire travel from the front of the car, up to the roll bar master switch (which could in theory be ripped off in a bad crash) and back to the rear of the car and was able to create a direct short of the battery and not burn out, was a much better plan. The smaller gauge wire, if it was shorted to ground, would eventually burn out like mentioned before.

Reviving an old thread ...

Does anyone have a suggestion for the best switch to use for Push-Off kill switches for both dash mounted and for corner workers?

I am imagining a red, easily recognized Push Off - Pull On (not momentary) switch mounted near the roll bar, and another (same, maybe smaller) dash mounted switch for the driver. They'll be wired serially so either will kill the engine.

I've Googled and found a few that might work, but not sure what I need for amps, rating, etc. Did not find anything on the Aircraft Spruce, Pegasus or McMaster-Carr web sites at first glance.

TIA.

The wiring system I originally worked out for the Citations had the battery under the driver's legs, just in front of the dash bulkhead. The master switch was mounted to the dash and connected the ground, chassis, to the negative terminal on the battery.

I had a cable system to allow the master switch to be turned off at the roll bar as required by SCCA.

I had an accident in a FF years ago where the fuel cell ruptured, I was soaked in gas and I had no access to the master switch to kill the power in the car. I also could not get out of the car without help. This is my reason to have the master switch accessible to the driver always.

For cars where the starter solenoid was remote, the solenoid was next to the battery so the main power to the starter was only hot when the starter was activated. That worked for the old Lucas starters or something similar. The new starters have the solenoids integral and the positive cable runs from the battery to the starter.

I use welding cable for the main battery cable. This has a very tough casing and is very flexible.

Thanks, Steve. That sounds good, but isn't quite what I'm looking for.

I do not plan to have a big battery cable going to the master kill switch, but rather a smaller hot wire from the battery's positive terminal.

I want a simple, red push button, off switch that the driver can push on the dash, and another one for the corner workers. They should pull out (and stay) for the switch to allow current to flow through.

Ideally, it will be high quality, not too expensive, small enough to fit in small places, etc. I do not want the "twist and pull" feature I see on many because that might be tough to do from the cockpit (in case I need to pull on the roll bar switch while strapped in).

I see a lot of buttons that seem to require a twist to pull. I'd rather not have that. I want a simple 2 position, push/pull button.

I've found lots of switches like this, but not quite what I'm looking for:
https://assets.wolfautomation.com/me...-r_870x630.jpg

Finding a push/pull-reset switch is not the problem, finding a compact one will be. They are generally for Industrial usage, and as such are designed to be bulky and highly visible.
https://www.google.com/search?q=auto...pull&*&imgrc=_

This one is smaller, but I'm not sure if the contacts are configured properly.
http://www.grote.com/products/44170-...cal-assemblies

As far as integral solenoid starters, I was able to wire mine just like the old Lucas because I use a full current mechanical switch instead of a remote starter solenoid. I just ran a small jumper wire at the starter, and no constant hot wire. I do like the idea of the cutoff switch in the dash.

You might look at aircraft wiring.

There you have a solenoid that is closed when you throw the "power switch" in the cockpit. That switch grounds the coil in the solenoid thus powering the plane. The positive side of the solenoid coil is wired to the positive terminal on the solenoid or it is internally wired.

The solenoid brakes the positive side of the battery. That solenoid is placed right next to the battery so the only hot wire when the solenoid is open is just a few inches long, going from the battery positive terminal to the solenoid terminal. The wire from the master switch is typically 20 SWG. The switch is a low amp switch.

This system does meet the SCCA master switch requirement. There are no hot wires going through the car when the switch is off.

The solenoids uses in this application are designed specifically for this application and they are very low voltage draw to keep closed.

Thanks, Steve. I looked on the Aircraft Spruce web site and didn't see anything that looked like what I want (big, red push-pull switch).

I'll keep looking and will share here when I find something.

Russ,

Have you checked Hot Rod Wire and loom supply Companies.
Painless or Watson Street Wires?

Russ,

This is the solenoid. You can use this with any toggle switch you want.l

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3017387

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraf...olenoids/24115

Now if you can find the same thing that is not for a certified airplane, it will cost half as much.

This is the non-certified solenoid I use from the same source. The wiring system Steve talks about is the same I have always used on my vintage prepared cars and has always been accepted by SVRA, VRG, VARAC, etc.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...lickkey=106000


I also wire in the standard electrical cut off switch so that tech is happy and corner workers can react quickly but I also have a dash mounted switch the controls the relay that I can easily reach.

I always noticed drag racing they had push pull kill switches, but after I googled it I noticed they are kinda not.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...Fdm4wAodrykD2g

Thanks, guys. My engine harness (from the bike, modified for car use) already has a solenoid/relay for the large cables from the battery and to starter, so I only need the switch(es) for the smaller gauge wire.

This is the best I've found thus far. I'm not sure how to tell if it is up to the task. It's $20, so that kinda indicates it's not a cheapo switch, but I haven't found any specs, such as amp rating. Your thoughts?

https://static.summitracing.com/glob...1834_fl_ml.jpg

Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-ds1834

Same part on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DS-1834-Stan...NYSDd7&vxp=mtr

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

The wiring system I originally worked out for the Citations had the battery under the driver's legs, just in front of the dash bulkhead. The master switch was mounted to the dash and connected the ground, chassis, to the negative terminal on the battery.

I had a cable system to allow the master switch to be turned off at the roll bar as required by SCCA.

I had an accident in a FF years ago where the fuel cell ruptured, I was soaked in gas and I had no access to the master switch to kill the power in the car. I also could not get out of the car without help. This is my reason to have the master switch accessible to the driver always.

For cars where the starter solenoid was remote, the solenoid was next to the battery so the main power to the starter was only hot when the starter was activated. That worked for the old Lucas starters or something similar. The new starters have the solenoids integral and the positive cable runs from the battery to the starter.

I use welding cable for the main battery cable. This has a very tough casing and is very flexible.

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Two questons. With your ground being on your cut off switch isn't the whole system chrged waiting for a ground to occur?

Secondly, even if the starter has a solenoid, can't you still use a solenoid to energize it that is activated by the starter button?

Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BorkRacing

Two questons. With your ground being on your cut off switch isn't the whole system chrged waiting for a ground to occur?

Secondly, even if the starter has a solenoid, can't you still use a solenoid to energize it that is activated by the starter button?

Rob

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It does not make any difference which terminal you disconnect from the battery. Off is just as off. Without a ground connection there is no flow of energy from the battery.

Most starters today have the solenoid integrated in the starter. You need 2 wires going to the starter, one to energize the solenoid and the other to power the starter. The solenoid has two functions, make contact to power the starter motor and to drive the starter gear into the flywheel teeth.

For cars that had Lucas inertial starters, you used a separate starter solenoid. That controlled the power to driver the starter. In that case, I placed the solenoid next to the battery. This way the cable going to the starter was only hot when the starter button was depressed.

One thing that is not considered when wiring a starter, is that every connection between the battery and starter has a voltage drop. You might have 12 volts at the battery but at the starter that might only be 10 volts. Add another pair of connections, you might get down to 8 volts.

"This is the best I've found thus far. I'm not sure how to tell if it is up to the task. It's $20, so that kinda indicates it's not a cheapo switch, but I haven't found any specs, such as amp rating. Your thoughts?"

$20 is not an expensive switch, IMO. I tried the Standard catalog, no specs. When placed in the ground path, all current, including the starter current will be going through the switch contacts. I doubt this switch is rated for that amperage.

Your summit switch is rated at 1 amp napa # ech pp6491. There is a 75 amp ECH pp6025 napa. We used a push pull switch on an Atlantic/CSR coversion years ago. Don't remember what switch it was but we built our own knob that had an engraved label, Push/Off. Looked OEM.

Thanks, guys. I'm going to see if I can make room for this Longacre switch.

http://www.longacreracing.com/produc...h+-+2+Terminal