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I'm starting to look at cars, and knowing next to nothing about race cars (but enough about road cars to be able to wrench most of the time), I've been told I should get someone to inspect a car when I'm interested in it. Is this relatively easy to do? Would someone 'mentor' me in the ways of open wheel purchasing? Inquiring minds want to know! :confused:
-=Bob
in your neck of the woods..........contact GTP motorsports.....i do business with them from florida frequently.......good people. 603-483-8213 or 781-393-6887 explain yourself and i think you'll find them very patient listeners and eventually very invaluable for their knowledge.
You'll need to know what the inspector is telling you. Seems to me there were a couple of threads about this topic and some very extensive checklists. I'm sure it was here. Do a search and let me know if you don't find a ton of good stuff.................{mumbling to self} I can't think of where else it would be if not here :confused: but that wouldn't be the first time.
Bob,
When I was getting started, I was lucky on two counts - a) I had a very experienced, big-time race engineer that would patiently answer all my questions and b) I bought my first car from a very helpful, straight-shooting guy. More thn 5 years later, I still call and email the guy, even though he's retired from racing and doesn't remember too much about the car anymore!
I have suggested others get someone to look at a car for them, especially if it wasn't close. But you need to be careful here. I had a guy interested in buying my DB1 to the point that he was ready to have it shipped to him, sight unseen. I talked him down and suggested that we meet someplace between LA were I lived and the NW were he lived so he could inspect it. He had to cancel a couple of times, then decided to have someone else look at it for him. This is the part to be careful about. The 3rd party really wanted to sell him a Club Ford he had for sale. A couple of days later, the guy in the NW emailed me that he'd decided to go in a different direction. Later, I heard other stories about the 3rd party that reinforced this type of business practice. :mad: :mad:
Bottom line is that you should "hire" someone without any selfish motives.
Barry Haynie wrote an article on buying a formula car. You can read it here:
http://www.euroformulaford.com/formula_ford_racing.htm
I would recommend having a reputable prep shop which specializes in your chosen class inspect your prospective purchase. It could be the best money you ever spend.
Ted: I downloaded the "Racecar info Sheet.doc" file a few days ago, but like you, cant find it again. Have to make copies.
John: Neat article, need to read it a few times through, its a great "what to watch for" list.
Garey: Thats the one thing I'm 'afraid' of, is hiring person B to check a car that person A is selling, and both A and B have an agenda, and I end up with a car that needs $10,000 worth of work. Not a reflection of anyone I've met in FF yet, of course.
Be aware that using anyone to inspect your choice is fraught with pitfalls. Not all items can be checked. Not all sellers will allow the degree of inspection required (disassemble the gearbox, check the CWP, leakdown, etc.) The costs for these inspections can be high. And there is no guarantee. It is impossible to thoroughly check a FF frame without virtually dismantling the car and no seller will allow that.
IMO it is best to locate a basket case, pay the basket case price, and rebuild it from the ground up and KNOW that it is done right. Cheaper in the long run.
Thanks for your email, too, Charles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
Thats what I'm pondering, if its better for me, personally, to know every nut and bolt on a car, and maybe only run a couple track days this year. I'm thinking renting anyway for the school, so I don't have to think about the car (*EVERYONE* has told me this.)
Decisions decisions...
Thats what I did with my 84 reynard. Bought it as a roller almost 2 years ago and now it's a functional race car. I've replaced every bolt on the car, with the exception of the specialty ones. Taken down to the chassis.It has taken a long time but it has been worth it knowing that it has a solid foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
Just my 2 cents.
Jeff
If you can get Glen at GTP involved, i think you would get a good answer. Charles is right, in that without a teardown, one really doesn't know.
I always thought I was pretty conservative, but I have bought 4 race cars, trailered them home, did a quick once over, and gone racing. Risky? Not that much. I always buy actively raced cars. Not garage queens. Any work I had to put into them was far less than a frame-up restoration (just so I could say i knew all the parts).
Drive it like you stole it, and wear your HANS. :)
If you've never raced there are significant advantages to buying a well sorted car. I've known several new racers who bought basket case cars with the idea of rebuilding them only to find they don't know what they are doing and created more problems. There is a big difference between working on a street car and a formula car. When I bought my first car it was a front running car. I drove it for two years without touching it. I paid a little more for it but in the long run it saved me thousands. I do agree with Charles about buying a basket case if you really know what you are doing. Remember you are buying the car to race it not work on it for years before using it.
When advising a new member I usually try to find them a good, well sorted car. This way they know the car is acting properly. It's always a good idea to have an experienced driver in the class drive the car after you've purchased it to ensure everything is working the way it should. I've hopped in many cars after their owners have struggled, told them what was wrong, helped them fix the car and immediately they went seconds faster.
Thanks Chas. I think Ive found a well-sorted car, and its local! Ive swapped several emails with the owner asking all the pertinent questions, and Im going to try and get my behind untangled from work enough next week to go over and check it out. It might even be in my budget! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Also consider talking to Don Denomme who lurks on this site. He is nearby (i think) and has years in the seat in CF and knows the local cars and shops. He is tight with Ric racing up in Ma. Also Snapdragon is up that way and they run a FC and know formula cars inside out.
Yep, I talked to Don a couple weeks ago for a while on the phone, and have exchanged several emails with him.
Seems like there is a great FF/CF community around here. :trophy_bronze:
I think the best advice I could give is just add 25% to whatever you have to pay for the car. There are always many things on a used racecar that need attention that no amount of expertise is going to find. If you see a car that says "professionally maintained" you better add another 10% on top of that.
I've done quite a few pre-buy inspections for folks who didn't want to buy a car sight-unseen. I have a specific checklist that I follow, and provide all of my findings in writing to the prospective purchaser. For inspections in the local area I used to charge $300. I'm not volunteering to do your inspection, but letting you know that there are people who can do it. Obviously, if you can see it in person AND have someone knowledgeable accompany you, that's a good approach. A slightly-better approach is to buy from someone with an immaculate reputation for car maintenance and repair. I've actually known several folks that maintain their cars in such a standard that I would recommend them without hesitation.
Other folks have varying standards. What is race-ready to one person is someone else's candidate for complete frame-up overhaul. Neither party may be lying; they just have different standards.
Buying a used race car, especially a formula car, can be a risky proposition. I have personally seen cars that were misrepresented as to the year of manufacture. Log books aren't much benefit, because most of the cars didn't have serial numbers that could be confirmed, and furthermore, damage is only recorded when it happens at an SCCA event. Finally, the value of two seemingly-identical cars could vary wildly, depending upon engine condition, racing miles and who did the most recent overhaul.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products