Preferred Engine Choice

Hey everyone,

I just got on board with the Formula SAE team at my school and I volunteered to be a part of the team working with the old car, and our task is to look into a new power plant for future cars.

We are currently using an '04 Honda CBR600. What is the preferred engine choice for the F600 cars? and, if any, availability of after market parts? (pistons, cams, etc.) On a side note; what is the typical set up for an oil pan? (wet sump vs dry sump). Thanks for responses in advance! :thumbsup:

-Terran

Glad to hear you're in school and hooked up with the FSAE team. Indy's a long way from Petaluma....
Have fun, and stay warm.
L

As of now the preferred motor is , Suzuki gsxr 600 but with Honda comming on board with the 600 challenge I wouldnt be surprised to see it go that way . as far as aftermarket engine stuff its all illegal. And its much cheaper to just buy a used motor on E-BAY than to rebuild one.

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Originally Posted by Laird

Glad to hear you're in school and hooked up with the FSAE team. Indy's a long way from Petaluma....
Have fun, and stay warm.
L

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INDY is as close as Sears Point !

After several years of experience with the GSXR600 we think that the CBR600 will be a little more reliable and a little bit easier to downshift but the Honda is bigger and heavier than a Suzuki. It will be interesting to see how the Honda works out.

Jim

Regarding dry sump vs wet sump, the dry sump is an allowed option in our rules. However, it is pricey so currently we are modifiying the OEM pans by shortening them and baffling it. In addition, we use the largest oil cooler available along with sometimes using a large remote oil filter in order to increase the amount of oil circulating through the motor. And a overflow/return tank as well. All of this with the goal of constant oil pressure AND good oil temperature.

HTH,
Jim

What specifically do you call"good oil temperature"? A number please.

200 - 210 f.

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Originally Posted by Northwind

200 - 210 f.

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With modern oils this is the absolute lowest oil temps that are acceptable. Up to 250 F is fine and 230 F is perfect IMO.

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Originally Posted by jim murphy

After several years of experience with the GSXR600 we think that the CBR600 will be a little more reliable and a little bit easier to downshift but the Honda is bigger and heavier than a Suzuki. It will be interesting to see how the Honda works out.

Jim

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Specifically, what have the reliability issues been?

Jim

Mysterianfreak, are you at IUPUI???

If you're looking for future motors specifically for FSAE you want to also give a consideration to singles and twins. With no minimum weight requirements you can really look at downsizing all the systems of the car by using a smaller motor. Looking at F600 for some input is reasonable, but unfortunately the design considerations are hugely different. There is a lot more design freedom with FSAE than with F600, so the solutions are going to be much fewer.

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Originally Posted by 2BWise

If you're looking for future motors specifically for FSAE you want to also give a consideration to singles and twins. With no minimum weight requirements you can really look at downsizing all the systems of the car by using a smaller motor. Looking at F600 for some input is reasonable, but unfortunately the design considerations are hugely different. There is a lot more design freedom with FSAE than with F600, so the solutions are going to be much fewer.

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It would probably be very difficult to get other engines approved for the class. Additionall the restricted 600cc motors are making a bit over 100hp and there is no 600 twin that can make that kind of power.

I meant specific to FSAE engine usage where the options are open. Not to restrict the team to 600s, but to look at the other options with fewer cylinders.

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Originally Posted by Jim Nash

Specifically, what have the reliability issues been?

Jim

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The number one issue since 2009 when the prototype was built has been
oil starvation which results in the #1 rod on the driver's far left of the motor
to break and come through the block. It only takes a nano second of no oil on
the rod bearing at 15,000 rpm to make this happen. As time goes on we are
getting much better at preventing oil starvation along with the other less crucial
issues - we are still relatively early in our learning curve.

Jim

Are modified sump pans allowed?
I don't mean dry sump but a baffled pan reshaped in cross section.
Would be cool if different engine configurations were legal with restriction so no one would cry. Just like in motorbike "Supersport" racing. Though I don't think they require restriction.

600cc-4cyl
675cc-3cyl
800cc-2cyl
etc

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Originally Posted by ChristopherBernard

Are modified sump pans allowed?
I don't mean dry sump but a baffled pan reshaped in cross section.
Would be cool if different engine configurations were legal with restriction so no one would cry. Just like in motorbike "Supersport" racing. Though I don't think they require restriction.

600cc-4cyl
675cc-3cyl
800cc-2cyl
etc

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Both dry sump and wet sump are allowed in F600. The oil pans are allowed to be modified, at least shortened down to about 2.5" to 3" tall max so the drivetrain can sit lower in the chassis. The pan modifications are free so you can be creative.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChristopherBernard

Are modified sump pans allowed?
I don't mean dry sump but a baffled pan reshaped in cross section.
Would be cool if different engine configurations were legal with restriction so no one would cry. Just like in motorbike "Supersport" racing. Though I don't think they require restriction.

600cc-4cyl
675cc-3cyl
800cc-2cyl
etc

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Oiling system is free. Dry sump also allowed.

We have slightly modified our wet sum pan with an additional baffle that solves any issues. Key is making sure that there is enough oil in the engine. A lot of guys new to the deal think that having the oil in the sight glass if fine. This does not work.

We have a procedure as follows:

1. Fill the engine with enough oil to make sure that all the oil lines, coolers, filter is enough. With our oil pan this is between 4 and 5 quarts the first fill.
2. Crank the engine without starting it until you have oil pressure. This is critical for a first time start. These engines start instantly and it can take as much as 10 seconds of running to get oil pressure from an empty system. If running during this time it is very easy to damage a bearing.
3. Run the engine long enough to get the oil temp up to 150 F. This allows the oil to drain back into the pan quickly when running
4. Have someone rev the engine to about 4000 rpm and hold it steady for a few seconds while you look for oil in the sight glass.
5. Assuming that the oil level is below the top of the sight glass add enough oil to make the oil level just to the TOP of the sight glass when running at the 4000 rpm level.
6. ADD at least 1/2 quart of oil.
This procedure is critical. Follow it and you will be good.
Now some guys like to run lower oil levels because the engines make more power out of the corners. DO NOT DO THIS.

This will give you great oil pressure. If the oil pressure ever shows 20 psi or lower when on track with rpm over 4000 rpm or higher when in a corner you have a problem. Now remember that these engines when idling when the engine is very hot will show little or no oil pressure.

Thanks for the replies everyone,

2BWise: we are currently exploring other engine configurations such as singles and twins, but I suspect that many of our team will be in favor of the I-4 engines.

Johnannz: Yes I just transferred to IUPUI this semester! :thumbsup:

Jnovak: Thanks for the detailed start-up procedure & oil level check! That will be very useful in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Mysterianfreak

Thanks for the replies everyone,

2BWise: we are currently exploring other engine configurations such as singles and twins, but I suspect that many of our team will be in favor of the I-4 engines.

Johnannz: Yes I just transferred to IUPUI this semester! :thumbsup:

Jnovak: Thanks for the detailed start-up procedure & oil level check! That will be very useful in the near future.

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My son is in the same program. Great choice!!! PM if you want to connect with him. He races an F500 with me.

Back when I was in fsae a long time ago, we switched from a 600 to 400cc. The inlet restrictor chokes out at a lower rpm for the 600. If I remember correctly, we were about even in power with the 400 after the 600 runs out of air. Plus, it was much lighter.

Tad
Wisconsin Badger