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So, what's the recommendation for upgrading? can they be replaced one corner at time as needed or on a convenient schedule? Or is there some reason they should all be done at once or at least both fronts or both rears together?
At $350- 400 per corner, I'm not sure I want to eat $1400 + at one sitting.
Ted, if they are worn/damaged they obviously need to be immediately replaced. In the past what I have done is rebuild one complete corner each race. Also, by doing so, I need to completely reset the chassis (alignment etc). This forces me to closely examine all 4 corners. At the end of 4 races, you have essentially new parts throughout. This does not take into consideration wear of the first corner by the time you have replaced the last corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Idlof
I rebuild a corner on my sports racer each and every race weekend. This forces me to check and repair/replace the parts BEFORE they fail; as well, as I watch for wear on specific rod ends, I start to get a better idea of the 'weakest links" in the suspension. Then I coupon those parts and replace them regularly. Moses might be able to council you on what are the weak links in the design.
I once lost a rod end at the top of T2 at Mosport flat in 5th gear (not in a FM); the result was spectacular, painful, and expensive. Not going to do that again.
With the Can Am car, we change suspension components regularly, like every weekend on a couple of parts. Again "an ounce of prevention". On Gen1 Stohrs (run as IMSA Lites2), the inner lower A-arm rod end failed regularly. We did the "962 pinch-collar" upgrade and changed the rod ends every 6 hours. Never broke again on the track. We ALWAYS threw out the rod end, even if it did look pristine. Again, not worth the risk.
If you are paying a shop to do a complete ground-up alignment, you may find it more cost effective to change the whole end of a car at a time.....you have to do your math to decide.
FWIW, I have not had another catastrophic event due to a missed component failure since 1998..
Regards, Tom
Ted
I am sure you could update one corner at a time but personally I would do them in axle pairs just for the convenience of having both sides the same.
It would drive me nuts to have old style on one side and new style on the other.
So I take it the old ones aren't being made any more?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Idlof
Sam I'm not sure, maybe Moses will let us know, but one old salt who religiously changes out the lower heims and never had one break told me that he "bought out all the old style that Mo had. " That was at the runoffs so I dont know if Mo has more back at the shop or will have more made.
So while that's a completely inconclusive worthless answer, it does show that one very fast guy with nearly 20 yrs in these cars thinks he "don't need no stinking upgraded A-arms."
That was my thought, too. I usually changed out all the large rod ends (lower 1/2" outers & the 5/8" ones on the front rockers) every 15-20 weekends whether they "needed" it or not. Never had one fail randomly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Idlof
I did have an upright pin break at Topeka the year they had those weird speed-bump things after the curbing.
The arms can be changed one at a time. The only dimensional change to the Arm itself was to accommodate larger inner and outer himes.
I do still have "Old" style arms in stock, as well as camber sleeves, and nuts. I will continue to carry them until they are out of stock. At that point I will only be stocking "HD" style.
I will carry 1/2x1/2 himes indefinately.
Although this new "HD" update is a stronger design, it will still need routine maintenance and replacement.
Hope this helps,
Moses
Formula Mazda
817.512.4752
I can't believe moaning about the price of the new Front suspension parts. People have been raising hell with Moses about the old ones breaking. So, he listened and got new stronger ones. He does not get them for free. In fact, if you know anything about having a new part made, the firs one is VERY expensive. There is no more performance for the money than Formula Mazda and we are Damn lucky to have Moses supporting and listening to us.
Dale McCallum
The pricing seems fine to me. It's news to me that the old ones broke all the time. Even when we did 5-car weekends I never had an a-arm failure that wasn't the result of contact.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmccallum
I do have a concern about reinforcing those joints, as they usually were the failure point in a heavy hit, and now it's more likley impact forces will be transferred elsewhere (such as the frame).
Plus I'm not a fan of adding unsprung weight to the car, even if it is a relatively trivial amount.
Not that I really care all that much as I'm selling the last FM car in the shop.
Just to be clear, what usually "broke" was the lower, outer 1/2" x 1/2" camber Heim joint (rod end), not the a-arm itself. I have never broken an inner 7/16" x 7/16" Heim joint or the a-arm itself unless I was in an incident. (of course these are race cars, so it could happen...)
I have had good luck since I started changing the camber Heims out every season, or after an impact, but you never know. I have had them break in the past. Mike Anderson broke one @ the FCC championship race at the Indy Car weekend 2 years ago @ Sonoma Raceway. They maintain that car very well & his camber Heims were pretty fresh. So, you never knew, & that was my problem with them.
Moses & I have discussed this & he is aware that by making these Heim joints stronger, it may transfer incident damage to other areas, BUT we have asked for this - and Moses has responded. THANKS!!!
The tradeoff is greatly reducing the chance of having a camber Heim joint break at a random time versus possibly more damage to other areas in an incident.
I plan to convert just as soon as I can recover financially from the RunOns, 'er RunOffs.
:thumbsup: :beer:
P.S. you certainly don't have to convert, there is no performance advantage to convert & there should be several of the "old" style around for quite a while. It is just one more optional item for you to consider.
Ted - Just deal with it, pal!!! :D
(Ted - better yet - you should buy 8 of the new lower a-arms and give me 4 of them!!!)
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :beer::beer::beer: :D;):rolleyes:
Ted,
I didn't say I bought them all; just that I bought enough to last me to retirement!! ;)
FYI...I change the 1/2 X 1/2 heims at the beginning of every season, regardless of how many weekends I ran in the previous year. At approx. $275, it's very cheap preventive maintenance compared to replacing an entire corner, at the least, when one breaks unexpectedly like yours did at Sonoma. In 15 years of pushing my sled around the track, I've never had one break without first hitting something.
"Old Salt"
My heims get replaced every year, or with confirmed damage/abuse. Do the A-arms have a life cycle? They seem pretty darn stout.
I did have a lower outer heim fail at speed with an earlier team many years ago, at Sebring, the ultimate car abuser. So that may not count.
My car is a '98 model and I have never replaced the A-arms...worried? Yep. We purchased 2 complete sets of the upgraded arms for both of our team cars. You cannot judge when metal fatigue will cause a part to fail. I know of 3 A-arms that have broke in the last 2 seasons.
I am an avid curb hopper and with better tires the suspension components are taking a beating on my car. I will feel more confident next year that our cars will not suffer a heim or A-arm failure...As an added benefit, the older arms have fresh heims and will be marked with the car and corner they came from as a quick replacement for track side damage repair.