Hi everyone.
Any recommendations for what trans fluid to use in a formula vee?
Thanks
Damon
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Hi everyone.
Any recommendations for what trans fluid to use in a formula vee?
Thanks
Damon
REDLINE makes a very good super light gear box oil ~ about $16.00 a qt if you can by it off the shelf. Pegasas carries it also.
Good quality ATF will work just fine.
My personal preference is to NOT use the super light stuff - at least until you get a real handle on how things are going. Lucas and Joe Gibbs make some good 75-90 synthetic gear oils that seems to work well in our boxes. The heavier oil doesn't SEEM to me to make any difference and I feel MUCH more comfortable with it in the box.
I ran ATF in my early years and it was OK .. till I started picking up the pace. The faster you go, the better your oil needs to be.
AND .. don't OVER camber the rear - it puts too much 'swipe load' on the axle paddles and fulcrum plates. I don't like changing them and they are getting harder to find - don't waste them :D.
YMMV
Hey Damon I recommend the Motor Master or Royal Purple 75w-90 from you local Canadian tire. I ran Red line ended up breaking the syncro's, and those where like hens teeth ten years ago. If you need any help feel free to give me a call. I am always willing to help a fellow WSCC member when I can
Cheers
Greg
I have built a few FV boxes and found ATF destroyed the ring and pinion. There needs to be some EP (extreme pressure) additive in the oil. I found the Redline diff oils worked well in all the boxes that I built including my Sharland FV. I sold the car to Mike Palermo MANY years ago.
John Rounds
Thicker oil does create more drag. Have D Scaler dyno your trans. 75-90 with keep a 150 hp/3k car transaxle good for over 100k. You will be luck to put 1000 miles on your FV per year on average. Do you really think wear is going to be an issue during your FV racing career?
Redline Super Light is lighter than ATF and has an EP additive. Syncro damage has nothing to do with the oil.
Current rear camber per side is about 2°, axle wear will not be an issue.
Brian
I retrack my advise.
When I was racing FVs I actually used John Deere traanny fluid. It is light weight enough to work as hydrolic fluid and but good enough to serve as lubricant in the transmission of tractors.
Some ATF contains abrasives to keep the clutches acting smoothly. These abrasives increase wear on sychros and as mentioned before, don't hold up under gear to gear stresses. Red Line super lite is my choice but many motorcycle oils are designed to operate in the transmissions as well.
The best thing anyone can do for their tranny is learn how to downshift into 3rd as gently as possible.
budawe :thumbsup:
The correct oil depends on the tolerances the box was built with. A good builder will know what works best in their box. A different box can require a completely different oil. (just like an engine) We run different oils in one box to the next. You build it for certain tolerances, then adjust your oil (as well as other things) on the dyno for drag, and heat. Dale
:thumbsup: budaw AND hardingFv :thumbsup:
We have always run Redline 75W90 (except many years ago when we ran some Valvoline since it was free:) )
We didn't run the RedLine due to rumors, legends or ads. We ran it after testing several Vees on the chassis dyno back to back with different oils and the same temps and rear camber setup. The RedLine was always as good or better than anything else tested. There are some better (HP) lubes that work (RedLine MTL etc), but there was more leakage up the tubes and we weren't as confident about longevity. .and RedLine does not recommend MTL or MT90 for Hypoid gears
No normal trans lube is going to hurt syncros, and certainly not RedLine. Shifting hurts syncros. :)
Don't use the Shockproof oils, unless you have an extra HP or two that you want to give to the competition.
BTW, with 70lbs of torque your stock clutch and no hole shots, you can use most any oil in a vee trans and if it breaks in 15 years, it WAS NOT due to lubrication. (It was due to hard or poor shifting or just 50 years of metal fatgue, (or maybe not assembled well. ))
The most robust piece of an FV is that trans. If the rest of the VW parts were that good, I would have been out of business years ago.. :)
However, I hated working on them. That why I left them to Bob Lybarger, or now the Bertolucci's.
I agree. it's almost impossible to destroy a V gearbox. But not done right, it'll cost you so much power, you might as well take a hammer to your "Monster Manifold". Dale
Jim,
I'm confused by the light weight shock proof redline MTL etc, etc. etc. Can you give a part number of the redline you are recommending?
Thanks
Dave
Like Steve Davis, the weak spot in my trannies has always been the fulcrum plates and axle paddles. I've used an EP fluid and would recommend sticking with that whatever brand and weight you choose. Our transaxles have hypoid ring and pinion gears which require EP fluid due to the sliding between the faces. Non-hypoid gears roll against each other with little sliding. Motorcycles (and old minis) that use regular motor oil in their "trannies" don't have hypoid gears.
Lybarger always recommended the Redline 75w90 EP oil as the basic stuff to use. He'd use the light weight stuff for specific races but didn't like the mess it created due to the extra leakage it caused. I've tried to follow that strategy and feel it has worked for me.
The EP should also do a bit better job protecting the fucrum plates which are also sliding. The more camber, the more sliding so as Steve says keep the camber as low as you can if you care about the plates and axles.
Bruce
Quote:
Originally Posted by veeracer98
REDLINE 75W90NS GEAR OIL (QT) Part number 58304 OR...
REDLINE 75W90 GEAR OIL (QT) Part number 57904
Both are great. (But as I said other 75W90 name brand synthetics will work just fine. We always sold our RedLine at 11.95 a quart. We had lots of "walk-in" store traffic but didn't do much mail order for it. Weird, since everyone else was selling it mail-order for $15+.) We also sold Royale Purple, Other than race oils (10W-30, etc.) our biggest seller was RedLine MTL and MT-90. Great stuff. Every RiceBurner in Lexington was using Redline from us. (We were the only Redline dealer in Lexington :) .
We stock Redline 75W85, GL-5+ hypoid synthetic gear lube, specifically for F/Vee's.
Several years ago, I asked Taylor Engineering what the best gearbox lubricant available was, in their opinion. I was told that the shock proof concept was the only truly new technology that addressed major gearbox issues without concern for higher viscosity parasitic drag. I have used the Super Light in my Formula Fords, S2000's, and now Formula Vee. I have had results from this product that are extremely positive.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Since the vast majority of Taylor's business was Straight cut gears that makes sense. The FV uses street like angled gears. The "cling" of shock proof is not desirable. (All though it won't hurt anything.)
Super Light has 1/3 the viscosity of 75/90 at 100c. This kind of viscosity difference in a FV race engine would equate to about 2 hp. The engine and gearbox are different, but you can see where this is going?
I have not found any research indicating the oil cling causes drag. Would you not think that 'cling drag' would not show up as part of the viscosity test... oil flowing through a restriction for a given time period?
If you are running the correct amount of gear oil, the gears are being lubricated by mist not immersion. Does cling then have a roll to play?
Brian
Oil drag in gear boxes is caused by the shearing and compression action on the oil trapped between the teeth of the two gears. While not legal for vees, relieving the base of gear profile between teeth will reduce drag by allowing more oil to escape from between the gears.
Shock Proof Red Line is not designed for syncho trannies. The tiny globes of shockproofing stuff builds up in tight spaces like needle bearings, synchros and splines and increases drag. It takes a lot longer to clean a tranny that has had shock proof in it.
1) Have you stated that before, but have you ever cleaned a gearbox that was at about 150°+ F? Would there be oil 'buildup' at operating temperatures? Any research data showing an increase in drag?Quote:
Originally Posted by budawe
Shouldn't this added drag from the 'cling additive' to part of the viscosity measurement? I assume that you guy equate 'cling' with drag.
2) Could 'cling' be part of a system that allows the use of lower oil levels (reduced windage, etc.) and lower shear drag loses (lower viscosity)?
Brian
Perhaps I should rescind my previous post and explain my experience with Red Line light weight Shock Proof (Blue) oil circa 2002. This is not a slam against Red Line they gave me great support with my issue. I take personal responcibilty for misapplication of their product. I have ran and will continue to run Red Line light weight shock proof in my Hewland, as I never had any issues.
The Tale of the Greg's gear box:
In my rookie vee season (1999) one week-end (Fourth of the season) I broke the 3-4 syncro and bent a shift fork in one fowl swoop. It was Rookie mistake which was a combination of down shifting with out the clutch and being low on gear oil. At that time I did not feel there was a need to check the gear box level Sunday morning before hitting the track. Now I do. I replaced the 3-4 syncro (the 1-2 looked fine) and fork with some help form my now best friend and was back on track. From then on I ran two season trouble free with old fashion gear oil. In the third season I decided to switch to Red Line Light weight Shock Proof because I thought it would give me the edge in our Club Championship. The season started well as I ran at the pointy end for the first week-end with a win and and 5 podiums (dam draft). During prep & service for the next event I noticed that the shop smelled like sulfur. I found the source during the gear box oil change. The fluid was a darker blue, but since every thing was working fine I did not think there was a problem. Ran the next event no issues. Did my prep & service and the gear oil was about the same color and the sulfur smell was not as strong. Week-end 3 & 4 were back to back and hot 36-38C+ (97-100F). Week-end three no issue, shifted fine. Did my prep and service, the gear oil was a darker blue but smelled no worse. Week-end four the car ran flawless on Saturday. On Sunday I had trouble getting first gear to leave the pits for morning warm up, but on track 3-4 shifts were fine. The first gear issue persisted though out the day but did not get worse. It was embarrassing leaving the pits but the car ran strong once moving. At first we though I might have a clutch issue but the take up was fine. During the next prep & service I pulled the motor to check that the clutch was not the issue. The clutch was fine, looked new in fact. Now when I drained the gear box oil; the sulfur smell was strong and the oil was black. I call the good folks at Red line and told them my story. They told me politely that I should not have used the Shock Proof oil in a formula vee gear box as it is bad for the syncros. They suggested their GL-5 synthetic 75W-90. After that phone call I took the gear box apart and discovered that the 1-2 syncro was cracked in several places. Both the 1-2 and 3-4 syncro looked corroded as if they sat over night in acid. So we swapped in a "New Set" syncros, cleaned up the residual red line and switched to Royal Purple 75W90 Synthetic as it was available at a local retailer. Ran that gear box for two more seasons with no issues. I bought a fresh box from BVM after discovering my box had developed a crack on the Bell housing. Bill recommended Royal Purple or Red Line GL-5. I ran Royal Purple and for three season no issues. I choose Royal Purple in this case because a local retailer carries it in stock and the only reason why I recommended it to Damon: not sure if anyone carries Red Line on the shelf in Winnipeg. Regrettably I sold the car after I bought my Reynard; wished I had kept it to run while I am rebuilding the Reynard.
As for the syncros: It could have been a coincidence that the 1-2 cracked the season I ran the Red Line Shock Proof, it could have been cracked all along. After all these are old gear boxes and god only knows how these things where treated in civic life. However this does not explain the corrosion or the sulfur smell, this could have been caused by god knows what. However, since Red Line themselves told me that this was the wrong oil for my application, and suggested another one. I feel vindicated that I as the driver I was not the problem in this case.(believe me there have been other cases where I've been the lose nut) The two seasons prior and five after with no issues should speak for itself, I did not become a poor shifter of putting it into First gear to leave the Pits for one week-end of one season. I admit that I am human, not formula one material (or Pro any formula for that matter), and have made the odd shifting mistake during my 15 years of racing. If the e 3-4 syncro were broken I would take the blame, like I said I did that in my rookie season in 99. Gimli at race pace we only shift four times per lap: two down 3rd and two up to 4th (six if you screw up Turn 1 and scrub off too much speed and have to gear down to 3rd get back in the power band)
Hope this clears the air, I have nothing against Red Line, and I continue use their products on my Reynard. I know the National Vee guys know their stuff. I would like to know if anyone running nationals have had issues similar to mine with the light weight Shock proof over the years?
This was just my personal experience and thought I would share it to help a fellow WSCC member from having the same issue I had. Up here in Canada we have to do things different:). We run the vee's on wide & heavy DOT Radial tires (Falkan RT615 in size 195/60R14) which are on wide and heavy 14" steel five star Rims. Some guys run a lot of camber in the rear, I never ran more than 3 degrees on my zero roll set up and fulcrums and paddles where OK with that.
The typical Gimli race week-end is: Saturday practice, qualifing, two sprint races (10 Laps each) One regional (15 Laps) Sunday two Warmups two Sprint Races(10 laps each) one Regional (15 laps). This is a very busy week-end with only two classes (tin tops & open wheel). It is a busy race week-end (compared to a SCCA Regional) but we get a tonne of track time.
Cheers
Greg.
I've been trying to follow along & understand as usual, but am kind of stumbling after I started thinking & looking at other gear lubes.... Why are we liking the 75/90 gear lubes so much & not after something like the Lucas L9, L10 & L11 lubes? They appear to be much thinner, and like Brian said, should have less HP loss.
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...id=30&catid=21
almost purely a matter of risk. Years ago NASCAR ran kerosene for oil for qualifying. Then put a new engine in it for the race. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
There are many other lubes available that may pick you up a few HP for a race. (engine and transaxle), But maybe not the following weekend. :D
This is why I push the conversation, there is always the possibility of learning something new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Clark
With Matt's help I have found something thinner than Redline Super Light SP!! Thanks for the tip. L9 is thicker, L10 equal and L11 40% thinner than Redline SLSP.
Brian
The global stuff I have dug out of knooks and carannies is a very dry paste like substance. I've been told that stuff is what provides the shock proofing. This stuff had separated from the oil so temperature is not a factor in it's buildup.
Between Bob Lybarger and myself, have built literally hundreds of trannies and his experience was the same as mine.
I can definitely see what you're saying, so I'm not trying to argue it. I just remember back in my karting days how much thinner oils helped in a 5hp Briggs, and am wondering if we could get away with something "better" without really sacrificing the parts. As said above, "it's almost impossible to destroy a V gearbox". And that the weak spots are the fulcrum plates. Could these fancier/hi-tech lubes work now? Maybe add a splash of STP to make it cling? (;))
Yes, the Indycar or NASCAR transmissions the new lubes are designed for get rebuilt a lot more. But how much strain do we put on our transmissions compared to them? I can understand that we would be a little harder on it with the lighter lubes, but how "overkill" are we with the 75/90? I was thinking that, for example, the Lucas L9 could work if we're not hammering a ton of torque & generating a ton of heat through the box. For what we spend to get that last HP nowadays, would it be viable?
Just my .02 cents but I personally stay away from GL-5 lube. It has additives that apparently don't play nice with yellow metals.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._Gear_Oil.aspx
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=276529
So, scientifically speaking, how do you equate stuff building up in the "knooks and carannies" with anything other than a hassle to cleaning during a rebuild? At worst, I view it as a case of additive fallout.Quote:
Originally Posted by budawe
So then if one is arguing that the 'cling' additive causes drag, then what could be better than to have it fallout of suspension?
Brian