Ralt RT1 Info Needed

I am trying to help a friend who is restoring a Ralt RT1 formula Atlantic car but he has no history or chassis number, only the tub number ( RT1-78-177) to date. It ended up being a hill climb car in France ( in yellow) but has been a race car in its first life. He believes the original color was yellow. The damaged chassis tag shown below came with the car, but it is not known for sure if this tag goes with this car. Anyone out there able to connect these dots? Thanks in advance.

Attachment 83415

Go to 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum RT-1 chassis archive. Contains listing of factory tub numbers etc.

Larry

We have RT1 molds if it help with the restoration.

Crowe Composites, LLC
www.crowecomposites.com

After looking at the chassis numbers, I assume this car has to be chassis 130-139? and was numbered according to chassis tub built in 78 and was the 177th tub built for an RT1 or for that matter Ralt period? (Ralt never had that high of production in a model year, so must have been the entire lot of car)
In looking at 130 to 139....
132, 135, &136 were Formula Atlantics
133 & 134 were Super Vee
The rest were F3 configuration so I would think you could trace 132, 135 and 136 first as they were all US delivered through Robertson (My bet is its one of those three!)

David, if it helps the tag number has to be RT1-134, as no other number fits the fragment of the 3rd digit visible.

That is not the normal format for the Ralt chassis tag. That is obviously made up. I'm not saying the info is incorrect, just that the tag is certainly not original. Look on the forward bulkhead of the tub, usually front facing, for an AM number (Arch Motors - who made all Ralt tubs until they went CF). It might be something like AM-78-xxx, indicating the year in which the tub was made (not the model type) and the number of tub made by Arch Motors that year.

If the number 134 is correct (as Stan has shown) it would indicate a fairly late model RT-1. (The first RT4 was number 162 and they were making both models at the same time, using up the RT1 tubs on hand.) Whether it was F2/FA or F3/FSV will depend on the chassis designation. But, be careful of inter-breeding. If the tub is flat from the seat to the rear of the tub (where the fuel cell lives) that indicates an F3 version. The F2 cars needed to be able to run 2 hours so they had a much larger fuel cell which required a raised portion behind the seat. The FA cars were based on the F2 tubs. The FSV cars were based on the F3 tub. Many people have taken F3/FSV cars and "converted" them to FA. From a previous post, it would appear this car has been inter-bred. I think it would be difficult to claim this car is an original Atlantic. The conspiracy-theorist in me looks at the missing portion of the chassis tag with some skepticism. A picture of the rear of the car should point us in the right direction.

Charles is right. That tag looks schetchy.

The original post from David says the AM # to be 78-177. Ralt RT1 #134 would be correct to be in a 1978 production run by the 10/10ths Chassis Archive page.

Charles, I do not understand the fuel cell sizing as you descibed as there are two fuel cells and were located in each of the side pods. Can you elaborate more on tub dimension differences on FAtl/F2 and F3/SuperVee in regard to the tub/fuel cell enclosures?

My favorite RT1 memory was watching the late Charlie Gibson and Dave Handy thrashing a pair of matching RT1's around Road Atlanta many years ago. The only thing cooler was watching Charlie in his Lotus 23 beating up on well...about everything...

Mike Winebrenner

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Originally Posted by mdwracer

The original post from David says the AM # to be 78-177. Ralt RT1 #134 would be correct to be in a 1978 production run by the 10/10ths Chassis Archive page.

Charles, I do not understand the fuel cell sizing as you descibed as there are two fuel cells and were located in each of the side pods. Can you elaborate more on tub dimension differences on FAtl/F2 and F3/SuperVee in regard to the tub/fuel cell enclosures?

My favorite RT1 memory was watching the late Charlie Gibson and Dave Handy thrashing a pair of matching RT1's around Road Atlanta many years ago. The only thing cooler was watching Charlie in his Lotus 23 beating up on well...about everything...

Mike Winebrenner

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Dave is in the middle of a rebuild on his RT1 I think. That dude is smoking fast in that car !

I stand corrected. Apparently Ron used this type of chassis tag earlier on. Ergo, that tag appears to be a proper tag.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...JnFr8xbqWhLK2A


This is the latter generation tag.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...OrMItRmVldRGwT

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Originally Posted by mdwracer

The original post from David says the AM # to be 78-177. Ralt RT1 #134 would be correct to be in a 1978 production run by the 10/10ths Chassis Archive page.

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It was not clear that the number was indeed an AM number. If so, that would be the 177th tub built by Arch Motors that year, and would have little to do with the Ralt chassis sequence. The 134 would be the critical issue.

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Charles, I do not understand the fuel cell sizing as you descibed as there are two fuel cells and were located in each of the side pods. Can you elaborate more on tub dimension differences on FAtl/F2 and F3/SuperVee in regard to the tub/fuel cell enclosures?

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I am going by what Marc Bahner relayed to me several years ago. The F3/FSV cars had no need for a 2 hour fuel capacity so they had smaller (possibly only one) fuel cell installed. The implication was that the cell enclosure at the rear was taller. A quick call to Marc would solve that issue.

I guess I was told wrong and the AM # is 78 - 177. As stated he does not think that chassis plate goes with that car. I did go to
10-10ths an saw that Chassis # RT1 - 134 first owner was: Hollamby FSVee Judd Yellow 1-6-78. Interesting that the original color of chassis #134 was yellow. This is probably hopeless, (Just like Brabham AM numbers), is there any known correlation between AM numbers and chassis tag numbers? Anyone have any old Ralt records? Thanks.

I'm also struggling with AM numbers for my VFF. Seems that there was not a rhyme or reason for the sequences. They did a batch and from what I've been told, sometimes stamped them on the truck leaving!
Since they were building chassis for several companies, there didn't seem to be an order. The March 719 FF chassis were, I believe:
AM/71/7 chassis 1
AM/71/5 chassis 2
AM/71/11 chassis 3

(March didn't seem to assemble them in any particular order either!)

I've begged Mr. Handy on my knees to let me drive that RT1. Probably ain't gonna happen. Still buying lottery tickets.

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

Dave is in the middle of a rebuild on his RT1 I think. That dude is smoking fast in that car !

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Originally Posted by David Irwin

is there any known correlation between AM numbers and chassis tag numbers? Anyone have any old Ralt records? Thanks.

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There are records. I have AM number correlations for 1980/1981 RT4 chassis numbers. Someone (probably Chris Townsend) will have the listings for RT1s. I suggest a specific post on 10/10ths requesting the information you need.

To reiterate - the AM number provides the year of construction (not design) and the numerical sequence of ALL Arch Motors (for all manufacturers) that year. Whether the manufacturer wants to build its cars in construction sequence or not is totally up to them.

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Originally Posted by mdwracer

My favorite RT1 memory was watching the late Charlie Gibson and Dave Handy thrashing a pair of matching RT1's around Road Atlanta many years ago.

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Mine was watching Cogan spank Cobb, Duclos, and Wood in the prototype RT1 at the '77 Runoffs. Magic stuff.

Apologies to all. Age catches up with all of us (hopefully). I was absolutely correct in everything I said . . . . EXCEPT for one small (but quite important) detail. It's just a small numerical difference . . . .

While I was discussing the RT1 vagaries betwen chassis types (F2 vs F3) my mind was working on the vagaries between the RT2/RT4 and RT3/RT5.

As far as I know, the main differences between the F2 and F3 versions of the RT1 revolved around track width (a-arms, etc.) and wheelbase, which was determined by engine choice, adaptor used, etc., as well as different brakes and wheels. Ergo, it was not too difficult to inter-breed between the two types.

Thanks to my good friend. Derek Harling, for keeping me somewhat straight. (And, he's older than I am!)

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

Derek Harling,

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:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Charles Warner

That is not the normal format for the Ralt chassis tag. That is obviously made up. I'm not saying the info is incorrect, just that the tag is certainly not original. Look on the forward bulkhead of the tub, usually front facing, for an AM number (Arch Motors - who made all Ralt tubs until they went CF). It might be something like AM-78-xxx, indicating the year in which the tub was made (not the model type) and the number of tub made by Arch Motors that year.

If the number 134 is correct (as Stan has shown) it would indicate a fairly late model RT-1. (The first RT4 was number 162 and they were making both models at the same time, using up the RT1 tubs on hand.) Whether it was F2/FA or F3/FSV will depend on the chassis designation. But, be careful of inter-breeding. If the tub is flat from the seat to the rear of the tub (where the fuel cell lives) that indicates an F3 version. The F2 cars needed to be able to run 2 hours so they had a much larger fuel cell which required a raised portion behind the seat. The FA cars were based on the F2 tubs. The FSV cars were based on the F3 tub. Many people have taken F3/FSV cars and "converted" them to FA. From a previous post, it would appear this car has been inter-bred. I think it would be difficult to claim this car is an original Atlantic. The conspiracy-theorist in me looks at the missing portion of the chassis tag with some skepticism. A picture of the rear of the car should point us in the right direction.

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Charles
That looks to me like an authentic tag from 1978-79. The chassis plates in that era were black bakelite, located on the right lower part of the dash. If you want I can send you a picture of a US Atlantic RT1 with that type of plate in exactly that position fresh out the crate.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. I figured that out.

Take care.

1 There is no obvious list of Ralt chassis numbers to tub numbers
Chris T has some data and has some fuel cell numbers too
Gearbox numbers where also note don some car build lists

2 If that plate RT1-134 is original to the car then it was Olly Hollamby's car in UK he raced FSV here for years as he was VW parts supply business in South London and has son runs Saloon car prep business
I recall Olly running his FSV cars off the back of VW transport like Pete Lovely did!

3 Not uncommon for a car to go from UK to France to go hillclimbing
They ran 2 classes unto 1600 and 1601 to 2000 cc
It would need lot of work to update it form F3 FSV spec to Atlantic spec
new wishbones wheels brakes and of course FT200 to replace the Mk9 box along with adapter plate
I would be surprised anyone would bother as they could so easily buy 1600 cc spec car March Ralt Chevron Lola

It would be useful to see photos of the car in its original purchased condition
is the car in UK or USA?
If UK is it the blue car less gearbox that was brought over from France last year for sale?

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Originally Posted by Crowe Composites

We have RT1 molds if it help with the restoration.

Crowe Composites, LLC
www.crowecomposites.com

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I am looking for the shroud that goes from the bottom back of the radiator to the top front of the tub.
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