Designing a SR

Long story short, I've been inspired to attempt to design and build a racecar from scratch. After tossing around some ideas in my head, I think I've narrowed it down to something that will be P2 legal with the capability to actually seat two if I wish to do so. I've got a few questions for now.

Are there any good resources on where to start when designing a P2/SR car? I've been browsing forums and constructors' sites the best I can at this point.

Does something designed by a one man show without a blank check stand a chance at being competitive? This is mainly something I want to do for fun and the experience, but I'd hate to put all the time and money into something that comes out having no pace.

What are some past or present P2/DSR or similar cars that were based around a two seater design? I'm not super familiar with makes and models when it comes to these cars.

Am I getting way in over my head in general with this undertaking of mine?

Not too knowledgeable on sports racers but similar enough to formula cars to suggest just look at the results.. you won't see many homebuilts at the pointy end

So I guess it really just depends on your motivation.. do you want to build a car and drive around somewhere in the middle of the pack some day after a lengthy build process and likely spending more money than you would have if you buy a known entity. Or do you want to start racing and working on your driving ability and see how competitive you can be as driver?

In the formula car world chances of coming up with a better mouse trap at less than what it will cost to buy a complete and competitive car is probably 0.. I can't imagine any different for a sports racer..

Whatever you decide.. good luck and have fun!!

You would be far better off buying an already assembled race car and modifying it to be competitive. There are so many little things that add up when you have nothing. Alternately you could buy a project that might provide you with some usable parts that would only slightly constrain your design. For example, uprights, hubs, steering racks, even bodywork can all be huge challenges by themselves.

But if you want to start from scratch, I suggest you start with a few books like:

Race Car Design by Derek Seward

Competition Car Suspension by Allan Staniforth

Race Car Aerodynamics by Joseph Katz

And what some consider the bible for Race Car Dynamics:

Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken & Milliken

You will probably find some useful threads on the Sports Racer forum in the car building section:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dsrf...r-building-f9/

Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by LenFC11

So I guess it really just depends on your motivation.. do you want to build a car and drive around somewhere in the middle of the pack some day after a lengthy build process and likely spending more money than you would have if you buy a known entity. Or do you want to start racing and working on your driving ability and see how competitive you can be as driver?

In the formula car world chances of coming up with a better mouse trap at less than what it will cost to buy a complete and competitive car is probably 0.. I can't imagine any different for a sports racer..

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I've been driving for a few years now and just got my feet wet in racing this year. I've been fortunate to be in a NASA region with a great HPDE program that has taught me well and has made me noticeable faster than the folks who just dove right into racing years ago and haven't had much, if any, pro/pro-am instruction.

In a perfect world, I'd love to be able to afford to do arrive and drive in an F1600 for a year or two then give USF2000 a shot. But, that kinda of money is neither here nor there. I've tossed around the idea of saving up for a CF and just having fun racing one of those, and that was kinda where my heart was set till I came up with this crazy en devour. The reality is, I'll never have the money to be competitive at a professional level, so I might as well do whatever brings the most fun. Designing and building a car would be quite an undertaking that could be very rewarding in the end, hence why I'm considering it.

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Originally Posted by David Ferguson

You would be far better off buying an already assembled race car and modifying it to be competitive. There are so many little things that add up when you have nothing. Alternately you could buy a project that might provide you with some usable parts that would only slightly constrain your design. For example, uprights, hubs, steering racks, even bodywork can all be huge challenges by themselves.

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You named off most of the parts I would have been looking to borrow off existing cars. The exception is the bodywork, as much of a pain it will be, that's the one touch I really want to put on the car myself.

I appreciate the links to the books and other resources. With any luck, my university will have one or some of them.

As someone that's raced Club Ford for many years and tried FC for a few, I'd go with a CFF and if you find that you're super fast and want to build your own design, at least you'll have some experience under your belt before you try to build. You'll also have a chance to make friends that might help you.

If you race with the Right Coast guys, which being in Ohio would be your best move, you can talk to Steve Roux who is a regular and built his own car.

It may be good to get my feet wet with an existing car that would be somewhat reminiscent to what I want to build. I've considered FV, but I think it would just be a little too underwhelming even compared to a CFF.

I'm still pretty set on at least doing the research and some rough design work of what is my vision. Nothing says I have to build it right away. I always love learning something new.

Dude...

If you are "saving up for a CF" you will go broke trying to build your own car..

You don't have to do arrive and drive to be competitive.. you do have to work hard.

being at the pointy end of regional CF field is vastly different than being at the pointy end in semi pro racing.

From your comments my suggestion is buy a project CF but in all honesty by time it's truly race ready you would be better off getting yourself a car that is already sorted

If you're looking to race in the area there really aren't alot of CFF's running around here.

You're best bet would be the FV Challenge cup. It's cheap and there are 20-30 Cars at each event.

Everyone always says FV is "too slow or underwhelming" but have never driven an open wheel purpose built race car. I guarantee if you've never driven an open wheel car before you won't be able to get the most out of one for quite some time. 95% of people out there can't drive an FV to its full potential.

You have to ask yourself do you want to run around the track by yourself or run wheel to wheel with others? Also do you want to have a fast car that is uncompetitive in its class or a slower class car that can run up front? A top or even above average P2 or FF is very expensive.

Failure is the best learning experience. All winning designs started from a blank sheet at some point in life. I think you’ll value starting from scratch much more than buying off the shelf. Makes sense to buy some components as you mentioned, but study and learn and then give chassis design of your own construction a shot. You can nickel and dime your way to a very expensive race car at a pace you can afford. And you never really have to pay yourself for your own time, unless you’re an accountant, then you have to consider the opportunity cost lost ha ha.

So in short, design your own, go out and maybe beat somebody, not everybody. Learn. Modify. Repeat. Continually evolve and improve the design and your own knowledge. Until one day, the only one left to beat is yourself!

Also, since you mentioned university - does your school have a formula SAE team?

I designed and built my own DSR, the Kokopelli, over a five year period I spent somewhere between $70,000- $100,000 and thousands of hours either designing, fabricating or going to the track to test or develop with drivers who could drive the car at or closer to its potential than I could. This on top of running a small fabricating company out of my garage to eat, pay bills and pursue the dream.
After some success , a couple track records, tons of disappointments I stopped having fun and quit.
No regrets though. It was a learning experience and still gratifying.
I only drove them a couple times myself but also realized maybe my main interest was the technical challenge of trying some " out of the box" solutions.
As suggested above, buy a car you can drive and use as a donor. The parts you use will cost you a fraction of what your own will cost to build.
Most importantly have fun!

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Originally Posted by Arbitrary

I appreciate the links to the books and other resources. With any luck, my university will have one or some of them.

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The cost of all of those books will probably be less than the plumbing bits for your fuel system. Buy the books, keep them forever. You won't regret it.

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Originally Posted by mikey

Also, since you mentioned university - does your school have a formula SAE team?

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Your location says Akron, OH. If you're attending the university there they have an FSAE program, which has been successful throughout the years. Lots of knowledge to be gained thru that program and tons of resources to get you going.

As mentioned above if you really want to go racing then buying a built car is the best way to go. You'll get on track sooner with less growing pains. The development phase of a new design can be quite exhausting. *shameless plug* You're also within the range of the GLC series (FC/CFC regional racers) with lots of people around to race with in a speed/class/type of car you're researching. Plus, an FC can be converted to P2 if you decided in the end that an SR was what you were really looking for *plug over*

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Originally Posted by mikey

Failure is the best learning experience. All winning designs started from a blank sheet at some point in life. I think you’ll value starting from scratch much more than buying off the shelf. Makes sense to buy some components as you mentioned, but study and learn and then give chassis design of your own construction a shot. You can nickel and dime your way to a very expensive race car at a pace you can afford. And you never really have to pay yourself for your own time, unless you’re an accountant, then you have to consider the opportunity cost lost ha ha.

So in short, design your own, go out and maybe beat somebody, not everybody. Learn. Modify. Repeat. Continually evolve and improve the design and your own knowledge. Until one day, the only one left to beat is yourself!

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Truly bad advice..

Just wondering.. have you followed your own advice?

This route requires an open check book and unlimited time.. from the OP comments he has neither

Sounds very nice and romantic to say you built your own car but in very few cases is it fiesable

Lot's of good advice here...

Unless you have UNLIMITED funds and time, it will be at least 5 years before your car sees the track. I would think
that you would be much better off buying a fully sorted car, especially if you want to run up front.

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Originally Posted by LenFC11

Truly bad advice..

Just wondering.. have you followed your own advice?

This route requires an open check book and unlimited time.. from the OP comments he has neither

Sounds very nice and romantic to say you built your own car but in very few cases is it fiesable

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Len,
your opinion is your opinion. Why don’t you Re-read the kid’s opening statement. He wants to design and build. He did not open with “I want to go racing tomorrow “

i will I’ll leave you to your wondering. No need to defend myself to you.
But I will submit this: no racecar was ever built with unlimited funds and unlimited time. Surely every car ever designed and built had quantifiable time and money involved. Whether anybody tracked it is another question. No pun intended.

Lots of sound advice here (even if there are varying schools of thought), thank you everyone.

I have no intentions of jumping right in with a competitive car that I would build, and I understand it will take a lot of time before I would even be ready to take it from a digital file to reality. I'm content renting seats in endurance racing series for the time being. One goal/dream I've had since I got seriously interested in racing is to put a whole season in pro/semi-pro racing; definitely not in a hurry to do this. Another goal I've set for myself now is to design, build, and race a car; once again, not in a rush.

Yes, I'm familiar with Akron's FSAE team. I've dabbled in it over the years here and there, but never really committed to the team. When I had the time for a design team, I was committed to the rocket design team. I'm not quite sure why I never did go all in with the formula team, considering my involvement in motorsports outside of school.

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Originally Posted by B Farnham

If you're looking to race in the area there really aren't alot of CFF's running around here.

You're best bet would be the FV Challenge cup. It's cheap and there are 20-30 Cars at each event.

Everyone always says FV is "too slow or underwhelming" but have never driven an open wheel purpose built race car. I guarantee if you've never driven an open wheel car before you won't be able to get the most out of one for quite some time. 95% of people out there can't drive an FV to its full potential.

You have to ask yourself do you want to run around the track by yourself or run wheel to wheel with others? Also do you want to have a fast car that is uncompetitive in its class or a slower class car that can run up front? A top or even above average P2 or FF is very expensive.

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your inbox is full

Greetings,

Folks here will know I am a SR-kinda guy, Formula-wannabe. As a consequence, my choice is a very vintage Spec Racer Renault. It is the Gen 1 of the Spec Racer Ford (now Gen3). It is a purpose-built race car,single seat, center cockpit, open top, and a GAS!

I race in the SEDiv as a SPU, Super Performance Under (2.5). As such, I am open to any number of engine modes (except turbo,supercharge, stay under 2.5 L, etc); and I can use race parts that I can buy at open source, not "Spec." The Renault based parts of these cars are getting scarce, so its good I can go open source, brakes, hubs, (engine), etc. Body modifications are pretty much open, and I am working a number of aero-options - because I am "bent that way." The really GOOD NEWS, SPU in SEDiv (most likely others) races with the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Spec Racer Fords, so plenty of wheel to wheel opportunity, last season at Sebring there were well over 30 Gen 2s and 3s and just 3 SPUs.

Steve Fenske (RIP) was a Customer Service Rep out in Colorado a number of year ago, and he did a numerous mods to the chassis and engines of his cars, including making 2 seat versions, a Toyota engine, rebody, etc. I recall one of his cars sold a year or so ago at under 20K. Well under he price of a P2,and certainly under a scratch built cost
.http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/atta...id=79606&stc=1

Out west, a highly modified version (longer chassis, bigger fuel tank, much aero, headlights and taillights) competes in the 25 hour enduro at Thunderhill. They turned me on to the Toyo R888 tires that last and last, with minor performance delta form the more expensive, 6 sets required for the enduro--Hoosiers!

You mentioned University. Yes, by all means get into FSAE if possible. Your driving experience could be helpful to the team.
Books buy them, own them,read them cover to cover. If you can source a copy of Alan Staniforth's Low Cost High Speed, and any how-to build books. You'll get a good idea of the "parts integration" required from those.

Learn to weld. First MIG, then get good with TIG. You'll never regret it, and have a well sought after skill.

Purchasing power. A lot of the SRF racers have been in this since the start in the mid 80s.THey have driven and upgraded and now moving on. You can Gen 3 cars as package with Trailer, etc for 30-40K. Gen 2 cars around 10K- bring your own trailer.

Fair Disclosure--Transaxle/engine combo is a FWD and any internal mods to the tranny are expensive. The Ford engines use a Mazda Transmission, and ditto - as I understand - so you are limited to zero gear changes track to track. (can be a good thing) But you can get a lot of HP from a modified engine!

There's my 2 cents. Best of luck. Get in and Enjoy!

Cheers - Jim

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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton

Lot's of good advice here...

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FOR CERTAIN.

I started building cars in the early 80s and we have had some success, but i can guarantee you that it is not easy to do what you propose but it is fun especially if you love lots of 100 hour work weeks and spending every $ that you can get and more.

Oh yah, if your married and have kids forget about it.

100 hour weeks?? You get your work done that fast??? :)

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Originally Posted by R. Pare

100 hour weeks?? You get your work done that fast??? :)

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yes 100 weeks x 100 hour/week = 10,000 hours, whee what fun!

Look at the picture in the left. That was a full speed effort. Designed and built in 1 year and won the runoffs in season 2. No easy task!

And you get paid so well on top of it! :)

Sorry - but I couldn't find this in my stack of bookmarks - was on the other pc!
it is a link to a build like you suggest you are considering.
Note - it was over 2 1/2 years from roller chassis to testing.

https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...p?f=10&t=14608

BTW, he does a nice job of covering the body build from buck to assembly.

Cheers - Jim

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Originally Posted by phantomjock

Sorry - but I couldn't find this in my stack of bookmarks - was on the other pc!
it is a link to a build like you suggest you are considering.
Note - it was over 2 1/2 years from roller chassis to testing.

https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...p?f=10&t=14608

BTW, he does a nice job of covering the body build from buck to assembly.

Cheers - Jim

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nice work!

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Originally Posted by phantomjock

Sorry - but I couldn't find this in my stack of bookmarks - was on the other pc!
it is a link to a build like you suggest you are considering.
Note - it was over 2 1/2 years from roller chassis to testing.

https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...p?f=10&t=14608

BTW, he does a nice job of covering the body build from buck to assembly.

Cheers - Jim

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That car's been for sale here several times. The builder called it the "LMR 001".

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...1-Sports-Racer

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?78597-2015-LMR-001-P1-P2-for-sale-or-trade-20k

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...-lmr-001-p1-p2

The builder was asking $23,000, but said he had twice that into the build.

Which is why so many people here said it's better to buy a car than build one from scratch. Unless you just have a lot of spare time and money, and the build itself is the goal, not the racing.


Greg

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Originally Posted by phantomjock

Sorry - but I couldn't find this in my stack of bookmarks - was on the other pc!
it is a link to a build like you suggest you are considering.
Note - it was over 2 1/2 years from roller chassis to testing.

https://www.locostusa.com/forums/vie...p?f=10&t=14608

BTW, he does a nice job of covering the body build from buck to assembly.

Cheers - Jim

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That's almost exactly what I have in mind. Thank you for that link!

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Originally Posted by Arbitrary

That's almost exactly what I have in mind. Thank you for that link!

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I love Linz like the racing brother he is, but don't forget that he spent three years and $50-grand designing and building a car that was overweight, under powered, and slower than a Spec Wrecker. Don't go down that road.

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Originally Posted by Stan Clayton

I love Linz like the racing brother he is, but don't forget that he spent three years and $50-grand designing and building a car that was overweight, under powered, and slower than a Spec Wrecker. Don't go down that road.

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so much truth

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Originally Posted by Arbitrary

It may be good to get my feet wet with an existing car that would be somewhat reminiscent to what I want to build. I've considered FV, but I think it would just be a little too underwhelming even compared to a CFF.

I'm still pretty set on at least doing the research and some rough design work of what is my vision. Nothing says I have to build it right away. I always love learning something new.

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Rethink your dismissal of FV. It is the least expensive class to race. The cars are not difficult to drive but to be competitive they demand a very high level of perfection in you driving skills. They also demand that they be setup right to be really fast. The driving skills you learn in FV will work well for you in anything you drive later. I guarantee you will be humbled racing a FV.

I learned to fly in a Piper Worrier and a Cessna 172 when I was in my 60's. I don't feel that I really learned to fly until I learned to fly a Piper Cub. The FV is the same relative to racing. I am now building an airplane.

I have built a few cars over the years and some have gone on to win national championships. But I got my start and foundation in FV. I have built one sports racing car for the old DSR class, powered by a Yamaha TZ750 bike engine.

A few suggestions:

1. If you have never designed and built a race car before. Pick a relatively simple design task .nothing is simpler than a FV but they still require a decent level of fab skills.

2. Use some sort of 3d modeling software. Imo this is a must and will save untold hours of work.

3. Simplicity of your design is super critical to the end product.

4. Spend your time on the design work then the fab work takes less time.

5. I suggest FV simply because the amount of total work is a couple of orders of magnitude less than any other type of car.

6. Never surrender to the frustrations that are part of a big project like yours.

Good luck!

Ps. Use the vee concept with a big engine and a sports racre body.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

Rethink your dismissal of FV. It is the least expensive class to race.

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FV is pretty darned cheap, but Formula First is the cheapest, due to FV's anything-goes tire rule, while FST uses a spec tire that costs less than the FV tire and lasts nearly twice as long.

Of course, every region is different as far as participation goes, so you'd have to check if there are enough other cars in any class you select.

Operational costs


Greg

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Originally Posted by holmberg

FV is pretty darned cheap, but Formula First is the cheapest, due to FV's anything-goes tire rule, while FST uses a spec tire that costs less than the FV tire and lasts nearly twice as long.

Of course, every region is different as far as participation goes, so you'd have to check if there are enough other cars in any class you select.

Operational costs


Greg

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If your spread sheet featured the challenge cup wheel and tire package with the newly approved disc brakes it would be much cheaper than the slicks/drums combo.

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Originally Posted by S Lathrop

I have built one sports racing car for the old DSR class, powered by a Yamaha TZ750 bike engine.

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TZ, as in the the 2-stroke bike? :revs::revs: Cool....... bet the exhaust was fun packaging it in the car..

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Originally Posted by scorp997

TZ, as in the the 2-stroke bike? :revs::revs: Cool....... bet the exhaust was fun packaging it in the car..

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The only system that was worse was for a 6 cylinder Kohler, 2 stroke and water cooled. It was a FC before F2000.