Anyone know how the races went?
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Anyone know how the races went?
Benson blew up on test day. Stuart blew a motor in qualifying, and Robinson never showed up.
We had 10 starters for the short race. Finishing order was -
- J. Schimenti
- MacDonald
- Hendrickson
- A. Jackson
- Lockwood
- Bernard
- A. Schimenti
- Blok
- Pope
- Morgan
Kind of a weird race. I think the FF's were beating most of the FC's on track, which at Daytona is exceedingly odd. A lot of faster class cars kept spinning out and then rather recklessly tried to move up through the pack, often causing more incidents.
Sunday was even worse, and I was pretty much driving defensively the whole time. I about rear-ended the FC leader twice in the bus stop. We had three yellows, and then the scoring order got all messed up when the field had a mass brain fart and all but two took a bonus restart when the pace car pulled into pit lane with the lights still on.
When the last double yellow came out, from my video it looks like MacDonald, Hendrickson, J. Schimenti, Morgan, A. Jakson, & me, but the scoring feed didn't get turned off when Jim & I went into the pits and the rest of the field took their bonus lap, so the order looks all weird. Somebody was filing a protest post-race due to passing under the yellow and chicane shenanigans, so I suspect it'll be a while before we know how it officially turned out.
Very messy behavior by lots and lots of drivers. Dbl yellow flags are not ambiguous.
Wow. I was thinking the heat would affect the motors, but maybe it affected more than that!
Especially when you go from 1st to third after a double yellow and little gets done. Or when you have a supp that says when you blow the bus stop you must come to complete stop but just roll through with no penalty.
Awful lot of stupid driving. Kind of reminded you of the carnage we used to see in January Nationals.
Or when the only 2 drivers in the field who follow procedure and follow pace car get penalized by reverting to previous racing lap scoring and lose positions.
August 8, 2016 Daytona
SCCA event
formula car run group with 40 cars has everything from FB to FV.
Fast lap for group 1:59, slow lap 2:48.
nuf said.
I respectfully disagree Mike.....but not about the class grouping. That IS way effed up.....far too many 'momets' related to speed differential. Literally, thank god it wasn't a catastrophic event.
However, first full course displayed at s/f just after leaders entered turn one , there is NO REASON WHAT-SO-EVER for thoseto race leaders to cross s/f next lap at full tilt boogie. The whole field for that matter seemed to lift about as much as Nico Rosberg did two pole positions ago! I know the lights on the banking were NOT WORKING. Grid marshals warned EVERY SINGLE DRIVER of the fact, and what it meant to them.
Clearly I am hot about this issue, and I haven't even raced in 10 years, but if a bunch of amateurs are going to behave like 'pros' or whatever then I don't want to race with them.....ever! Then factor in the stewards and their complete ineffectiveness/incompetence or whatever THEIR problem is, and that makes me not want to race either! I know I am coming across as a complete flaming ass but so what! If I had been chief steward I would have dq'd the field except for the vees.Probably would have file a RFA against 50% of the drivers too. This is club racing guys. Road to indy is another route. Rant over .....for now!
I think the rant is well placed.
There appeared to be no stewards in charge. Even if they could not control the clown while they were on the track, they could have/should have afterwards.
Not like the days of Fred Schmucker. (RIP)
I remember Fred well.....or as I referred to him....Shred! He broiled our group on many occasions......MOST of the time, the broiling was quite appropriate.
I wish we had more formula car racing options here in the Southeast. Brad Baytos's FC/FE,etc series could provide a good platform to build from, but unless more big fat loud mouthed dummies like me get their toys out of mothballs and on the track, I fear the series may not survive much less grow. The jury of doctors are still trying to sort out MY problems(no their not psychological!).......what about the rest of them out there?
Videos? Had to pull out at last minute. Maybe fortunate we did.
I sat in car on grid for about ten minutes before Sunday's race..........no one, no grid worker, no other person said anything to me about the track's yellow lights not working........period. I saw the flags for the first full course yellow and....bingo.....was passed by about three or four cars..........and then they passed probably four more cars that were in front of me.........many of those passes were in the infield where there are three flag stations.
It's a stupid story about my watching most of the Sunday race from behind the wall at turn six.... but I did ask one of the workers there about if there had been talk on the radios about the clear and multiple passes under the yellow and he said > no.
Huh?
:yellowflag::yellowflag:
Grid went to every car I saw and said lights weren't working watch flags. Shouldn't need oval lights when every corner had same flags. Also not hard to figure that when you see a car in parts spread over track, ambulance and 3 wreckers you're getting a full course yellow.
Another clue might be that when the first place car in class slows and you pass him but next corner has double yellow maybe last corner did too? Especially when the lead car that slowed has no radio and you do? Or maybe the old guy with no radio has a flag fixation. Funny he was the first guy to follow pace car into pit while the field went for phantom restart. Coming out of four when pace car pulled in pits with lights on and leaders stayed on track with starter frantically waving black Sam and I pulled in wondering WTF. Only to be initially scored as DNF.
The on track issues of closing rates and spinning faster cars charging from rear along with a perplexing slowness of FC in corners among FF created some close racing but apparently left many people so frantic as to lose awareness.
Or maybe we're so used to low car counts that cars on the track confuse use?
I lifted to 3/4 at double yellow and got passed by 3 people from nascar 3-4. Picked back up speed couldn't give up any more positions.
Well, I rarely post on these forums (see Post count on left), but after this weekend's Daytona race I wanted to see what others were saying about it. Sunday's race was a real "cluster", perhaps one of the worst I have experienced in 20 years of driving FV. I was in the yellow FV and I was more than a little concerned with the speed differential we experienced as well as some of the circumstances that went on. This track accentuates those speed differences tremendously. I know you faster classes just puckered like crazy as you approached our relatively "snail paced" cars. I can tell you we stay puckerd ALL THE TIME. We try like crazy to drive our mirrors in order to know what's coming, but with almost 70 MPH closing speeds, that can have limited effect.......particularly approaching the Bus Stop. Since we can't see directly behind our cars and with the very long back straight approaching the Bus Stop I don't care how much "mirror driving" I do, I may not see a P2, P1, FA, FE or many of the others approaching with the speed differentials I saw. I can tell you, when that P2 blew by me out on the NASCAR portion of the track.....I felt it.
There were a lot of cars in this group, many more than I have ever raced with in an all inclusive open wheel group. For those of us in the back, I was concerned at two things that made it really difficult for us to ALL get lined up behind the pace car in time for the start/restart. The pace car was going pretty fast, which I guess is ok for this track. That plus many of the cars waited way too late to start closing things up.....on virtually every start/restart for those of us toward the rear when the green flag fell we had just come out of NASCAR turn 4 going like crazy still trying to close things up. That's not a race management issue, but a driver thing. As an example there were about 4 or 5 cars ahead of us that stayed back 50 to 100 feet behind the car in front of them.....and this was coming out of the Bus Stop. This was amplified because of such a large field and I think maybe the pace car might recognize that and not go as fast. But I also recognize once they set the pace, they shouldn't vary that speed......so this is on the drivers, not the pace car.
During the double yellows we are encumbered to stop racing, slow down and drive at a safe speed that will allow us to collect behind the pace car. But for us FV's (particularly on one of Sunday's Yellows) we had almost the full lap to catch those cars behind the pace car and we had to drive like hell to get there. Oh we slowed down, I mean we weren't at racing speed and didn't pass each other but we had to DRIVE LIKE CRAZY to catch the group (following a pace car cutting a pretty good pace) and not cause another lap under full coarse yellow.
On Sunday I did have one of the grid Marshalls tell me that the yellow lights on the NASCAR track were inoperative and to carefully watch the flag stations. Some in the driver meeting after the race said they were not notified. What did help was all the ambulances turned their lights on during a double yellow......and that helped while out on the NASCAR track.
One of the scariest moments experienced this weekend, and many of the drivers will remember this. On the double yellow on Saturday most all of the faster cars were behind myself and the FV lead car. This was the result of only the top 7 or 8 cars had lapped us when the double yellow came out. After the green flag re-start and proceeding through turn's 1,2 and 3 our two Vees were passed by about a 40 car freight train. We kept our Vees way to the left and fortunately most the other cars stayed right. There were the few that just about ripped our front ends off trying to cut over in front of us to make some gain of some type. I swear I don't know how we got through that in one piece, but we did. If you drive in one of the other faster classes......I'm sure you remember that moment. Made a few Kodak moments for me that's for sure. Can't wait to download the video from my car cam just to see that again.
Well, I can tell you that at this track, and some others too, dumping every open wheel car into one group is CRAZY dangerous. I feel that the huge speed differences and rather large number of cars made this a very tough race to run safely for all of us. I don't know if anyone was hurt in those incidences causing the double yellows, but it's amazing someone wasn't shipped to Flagler Hospital down the street......like I was in 2013.
I may think twice about entering this race in the future if they combine all the open wheels together again. But I love to run this track. Some other regions (Buccaneer) seem to be able to split the FV,FF and F500's away from the winged cars and stay away from these extremely dangerous situations. If they can do it then I can't see why others can't. Seems like there were enough numbers to make it viable to split us up.
Sorry for the long post as a FV driver in a FF forum........but wanted to say some things I was driven to say since I believe others may have seen what I saw or didn't see. Plus we drive with you FF's all the time and we're used to your speeds. But understand we try to stay out of everyone's way when we can see them, but there are some circumstances that make that very difficult to do on a track like this one and so many diverse cars.
Drive safely gentlemen.......oh, and ladies too.
Thanks for being patient....
Russ
Mr. Morgan,
Sorry to hear that your protest of me (3 spot grid penalty dropping me from first to fourth) basically handed the south division championship to John Schimenti who was elevated to first place. Not to say that I did not deserve to be protested as my video clearly shows that I passed you under double yellow at the exit of the bus stop. However Schimenti also passed you as well as one other car at the same place. Neither driver was penalized because, I was told, they had the 'good lawyer sense to deny deny'. I on the other hand felt so strongly that I did not do anything wrong I brought my race video along to support my case. After much freeze frame scrutiny we all did see the double yellow flag. So basically my own video hung me out to dry.
So do I feel bad, initially yes. Bad because I lost my first FF race win ever and at DAYTONA of all places in an old DB1 against much newer cars! With a few days to cool off and contemplate the result I now believe that the penalty was just (although harsh 3 spots lost for one position gained). I finally came to the conclusion that I could not truly enjoy the win if there was an asterisk attached to it. I can make excuses and tell you that due to the speedway lights not working it was hard to see the flags. If you consider how far the bus stop flag station is away from the bus stop and how far (wide angle) it was out of the drivers field of vision one can make further excuses. It took many back and forths in slow mo with the video to see the flag. Compare that to trying to see the flag in your periphery vision in real time while threading through a tight piece of track at 100 MPH. So no excuses I blew it. Safety First! Jim did the right thing in protesting and I paid the price. No hard feelings Jim however I do plan to give you a run for your money at the last race of the season at Sebring and the championship race at Savannah!
My apologies to the stewards for being an argumentative ass! Do they read Apex Speed?
Hartley
Hartley,
A stand up response. I hope you and I remain on good terms. As for the other individual involved he and I will have a blunt conversation the next time we race, as this pass under yellow was not an isolated incident.
Just for the record Jim, none of my rant was aimed at you. You are cut from the old school cloth and while a fierce competitor, you always keep your head strapped on. Well ok, almost always! I remember racing with you nearly 30 years ago, and always climbed away from the car complete, in one piece, with a huge grin on my face! If I am fortunate enough to return to driving, i sincerely hope to be as quick as you but more importantly, be able to race as the club intended, as a gentleman. Today's club truly frightens me.
That's because the Chief Steward was sitting on his ass on the tailgate of his black Merc wagon not giving a crap. I talked to him for 20 minutes trying to figure out how to get my cheap ass fiberboard replica of a drink coaster trophy for 2 firsts and he......looking like his dog died said he was hiding from everyone. In thirty years of racing and traveling from California to Daytona to race, this was the worst experience with a region I ever had. Passing under the yellow, drivers that should not even sit on a riding lawn mower, attitudes by Steward and others and an all out cluster fornication!!! Drivers were getting hurt and dangerous, sloppy driving was the norm. In my estimation 25% of the drivers should have been meatballed :meatball: or blackflagged :blackflag:.....if those flags are even used anymore. To start 48 open wheelers plus Sports type racers is not only moronic but also very dangerous. If the Central Florida Region is that much of a bunch of ignorant cheap asses that they only care about profit and not our safety as drivers then screw them, I'll fly to Florida and race and not in CFR but Florida Region which I thoroughly enjoy because John Zuccarelli does a wonderful job supporting us with safety and great racing. I guess the moronic imbeciles in Central Florida are waiting for one of us to get killed before they get off their dumbasses!!!!! :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown: I need to end this by saying that most every worker on the grid and other areas were fantastic and this nightmare was not at all any of their doing.......besides.....I love their rabbit ears.....made my time on the grid enjoyable........that's all folks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
The Club has always sucked since I joined it in '71.........now Kansas is worse then ever which is why I quit and went USAC in '85.......now I'm back for a few races and whoa......stupid is as stupid does as Gump said.....:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardi
The weekend was a cluster procreation and partially because the Chief Steward was sitting on his ass on the tailgate of his black Merc wagon not giving a crap. I talked to him for 20 minutes trying to figure out how to get my cheap ass fiberboard replica of a drink coaster trophy for 2 firsts and he......looking like his dog died said he was hiding from everyone and didn't know anything.....that my driver friends is a major understatement!! I though I was speaking to Sargent Shultz from the old Hogan's Heroes TV series "I know nothing!" In thirty years of racing and traveling from California to Daytona to race, this was the worst experience with a region I ever had. Passing under the yellow, drivers that should not even sit on a riding lawn mower, attitudes by Steward and others and an all out cluster fornication!!! Drivers were getting hurt and dangerous, sloppy driving was the norm. In my estimation 25% of the drivers should have been meatballed :meatball: or blackflagged :blackflag:.....if those flags are even used anymore. To start 48 open wheelers plus Sports type racers is not only moronic but also very dangerous. If the Central Florida Region is that much of a bunch of ignorant cheap asses that they only care about profit and not our safety as drivers then screw them, I'll fly to Florida and race and not in CFR but Florida Region which I thoroughly enjoy because John Zuccarelli does a wonderful job supporting us with safety and great racing. I guess the moronic imbeciles in Central Florida are waiting for one of us to get killed before they get off their dumbasses!!!!! :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown: I need to end this by saying that most every worker on the grid and other areas were fantastic and this nightmare was not at all any of their doing.......besides.....I love their rabbit ears.....made my time on the grid enjoyable........that's all folks
.......being an ass is acceptable but not knowing how to drive a racecar safely was reason enough to have your competition license suspended when I started racing back in the early 70's. I fly to Florida to race from California and have raced in your group at three events......you are going to hurt one of us or kill someone and it better not be me or one of my friends or they won't be the only one hurt.......learn to drive, winning races and going fast is not all there is to racing......using good judgement is just as important!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley
Not sure of what you are referring to Mr. Corkscrew. Can you be more specific? What car do you drive? I will review the video. Is Corkscrew your real name? Most people I know would sign there real name to an accusation instead of hiding behind a pseudonym. I made a mistake, I admitted it, I was heavily penalized, I apologized to the affected party. You are way over the top.
Eliot Fisher #28 F-5........watch your previous races and what you've done to a friend with a FV.......look.....I've raced 30 years and because of the lack of scrutiny these days and the lack of driving ability these days you just have to be more careful.....I apologize for laying into you so strongly because I have been an aggressive driver my whole life. I drove everything from FV to AS to USAC Sesco midgets to Formula Mazda here in California.......someone is going to get killed. The CFR is partly responsible but us experienced drivers need to use better judgement in today's Club racing. I was slapped hard by a P1 at the hairpin where the moron tried to pass me on the inside while I was already there.......no reason for that......karma took that imbecile out for the weekend and I kept going......no reason for that......we gotta drive different then we did.....I apologize for being pissed off......but hopefully this explains my rant in more detail.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley
:greenflag:Quote:
Originally Posted by Corkscrew1
EJ
corkscrew
waited a few days to respond
understand your frustration but have to take exception to your ad hominem attacks on both the Chief Steward and Hartley.
I don't disagree with the fact they both made mistakes, as far as I am concerned the Hartley issue with me is resolved. If you have an issue with his driving go to him in the paddock and talk to him man to man, not an apex blast.
I have had issues with many drivers over the years, even your favorite JZ, talked them out,coached, came to an understanding of needs and expectations on track and worked it out. This is an amateur club. Over 30 years my goal is to encourage new drivers to improve.
As an aside RDstal I appreciate what you guys go through. Started out in CF when we still had Atlantics running. My incident with Harvey Saturday was just that, he got bombed by a train at bustop turn in. We had to go, he had nowhere to go, had he held it just a bit longer we would have been by, but I didn't make it. Our race forced the issue. By the same token when I am not racing for position, and I come up on you FV's in any corner, I lift and wait for the straight ,you guys deserve your race too. The speed difference at Daytona was unfair to most involved.
Back to the officials; they are volunteers doing the best they can. This was a hectic weekend. As a club member if you are not happy with an officials performance you have the same recourse as against another driver. Protest. Trashing someone is not the right way to do it.
We are racing for cheap little trophies among friends or people who should become our friends, supported by people who work tirelessly so we can have fun.
Can't we all just get along?
The Daytona Regional of September 17/18 will likely have the same grouping for 'Wings and Things'.........and less on the line........this time no SARRC points, no GP4 series, no FC series, no Florida Cup.......several in the field were there for purely these reasons and not merely the opportunity to race at Daytona.......so the driver turn out will be different next time and with a smaller grid but not because of anything about this past weekend's clusters.......and since it will be purely a Regional grid it should be more fun for the drivers and a lot fewer 'cluster' moments both on and off track..........I'll bet even the Stewards will be a little more up to their task.
I'm certain some who left Daytona last weekend did so after a less than ideal experience which may lead to thoughts of not coming back.........which would be unfortunate because since they're not interested in a purely Regional grid, they'll likely miss an event that will be more fun than this past weekend.
What the heck, I had a bit of an argument with Race Control via the Turn 6 corner workers and the Daytona on-track people half-way through the race but eventually decided to let it go and just relax........it worked out.
If I have anything as a negative comment it's only this: Can we get a real pace car instead of a toaster on wheels?
Other than the crashes, I enjoyed Saturday. Very thankful for the volunteers.
I did not run on Sunday, but I was told that all of the drivers got out of their cars on pit lane for a meeting??? If true, what happened?
Bob
pace car pulled in pits with lights on during double yellow
sam Lockwood and I followed it in the rest of field went full boogie restart despite black flags
they were all called in for scolding I was not there as I was already filling out protests
Actually it was the first driver originated impromtu meeting to nominate Jim Morgan for SCCA President. :)
to paraphrase
if nominated I will not run
if elected I will not serve
hey john
despite the official results are you willing to agree you did not win?
A thought about this after many days........????.............Hmmmmmm.......I have worked the flag station that I shall mention here...........and believe me it is the worst place to flag that I can think of at any track >>> OUTSIDE 7.
There is a small hole in the Daytona backstretch outside fencing just above the wall..... way down the backstretch.........at roughly the 100 foot spot before Bus Stop turn in - if I've got it's specific location correct - for a flagger. So a driver should see flags sticking out of the backstretch fence sort of on driver's right long before they get to the flaggers on driver's left at the Bus Stop.
I've worked this station..........you're all alone.......you've got to leave the track and go outside and through a locked fence to get there, so you might not get there in a timely fashion......your radio can fail and then good luck with hand signals to the flaggers at the kink - I've flagged this location sans radio - fun fun fun........the hole in the fence is at about navel height........so the flagger has to be stooped over the entire time [can you say Oh My Aching Back?!?]........one gets to stick their head out a little and turn it sideways at the same time to see the cars coming but other wise the line of sight just sees a lot of fence superimposed on itself from an acute angle.......and of course you're holding your arms out through the hole when you do need to display a flag and then worry the whole time about maybe dropping one onto the track.........there is no good place to sit or stand whilst flagging that location so you stand on irregular height blocks of concrete........if it rains, there's no cover. I'm proud to say I've flagged that "hell-hole" and completed my duty without incident.
Maybe it's just with the passage of time that I'm forgetting someone being at Outside 7 on Sunday [or Saturday] but I could swear there was no one at Outside 7...........can anyone confirm and agree no one was there..........or - and maybe from the videos - someone can say > "No Stan you're just getting older and you're not remembering it, you were concentrating on racing, indeed there was a worker at Outside 7."
Think: no one at outside 7 and no track lights.........it would contribute to a sure fire cluster surely happening.
Anybody?
Stan
Not real hard
Once you turn down in bus stop you are staring right at flagging station, see it every lap with plenty of time between left turn right turn. Funny it was the same station that showed up on Hartleys video when I was in front, him in second and I assume Schimenti in third. Video showed double yellow went in first came out of nascar 4 in 3rd. Hartley got dropped for pass under yellow but not schimenti not saying?
I would agree the flag going into bustop is important but only if you are someone who gives a **** about flags.
Been passed too many times in CFR under yellow to play nice going forward,not saying.
Thanks for letting me know what that meeting was all about.
At Daytona a few years ago, I remember being passed by 3 drivers between the entrance of turn one and the hairpin. As evidenced by video, the yellow lights were on and the yellow flag was also displayed beginning at the start finish line, and thru all the horseshoe.
I remember that day! The person in question was also one of the guys that passed you under yellow. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob Coury
I'll add that sometimes as a worker you don't get a clear view of a pass under yellow....or you think you did see a pass under the yellow as it was ending but are not quite certain because you didn't see it from start to finish.....or you saw a pass under the yellow but it happened so fast you didn't get both car numbers and their description..........so you ask the other worker(s) at the corner who answer with > nope, I didn't see that one..........or you're working a turn in the infield and you see a pass under yellow at a different corner, so you don't bother calling it in and a moment later realize the other corner where it happened right in front of them must not have seen it properly because they're not calling it in.....
.....................so the pass under the yellow doesn't get called in at all.
But overall a driver should not choose to pass under the yellow thinking they'll get away with it because from my time spent flagging I think the vast majority of such actions get seen and called in
So the corner worker missed the double yellow double pass on Jim. I got a 3 position penalty and lost my first FF win and the other driver gains enough points to lock up the south division championship. Kind of a sad way to end the season.