Can anyone tell me why formula cars do not have brake lights? I'm curious as to the (most likely historical) reason.
- Rob
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Can anyone tell me why formula cars do not have brake lights? I'm curious as to the (most likely historical) reason.
- Rob
While it may be a safety feature, my first thought as to why I would not want a brake light is so that my competitors can't determine the exact moment I am applying the brakes. They may be able to use that information to gain on me or overtake me going into the corner.
If the rules required a brake light, there would be an additional button on my steering wheel wired parallel to the brake switch, which would be pressed about two seconds prior to my stepping on the brake pedal in any given corner. ;)
I remember reading that the early 2-series Chaparrals had mercury switches wired into their brake lights to cause them to come on under deceleration, before the driver actually stepped on the brake pedal. A few years back, I heard of a natioal SSGT Corvette driver wiring an adjustable delay into his brake lights, in the hopes of "suckering" a competitor into going into a braking zone too deep.
Historically, road racing (esp. in Europe) involved road cars with with a full complement of road-going gear (remember that into at least the late 60's cars competing at Le Mans had to carry a spare tire and a "suitcase" on board) As far as the question of why open wheel cars don't have brake lights, I'm guessing that as fenders were removed to save weight, other superfluous items, such as horns, wipers, lights, etc. also went by the wayside. These stripped-down open-wheelers eventually became GP and Indy (and dirt) cars, while their"closed-wheel" counterparts stayed closer to their road-gong predecessors.
Joby Graham
I switch on my rain light sometimes a few hundred feet before my braking point...
Old age cunning. :skull:
Yes, but the other previous post about using a delay doesn't sound wise, IMO.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Frog
As long as this question has been around, I think it's safe to say the reason is rooted in history. I gotta agree with the "stripped-down open-wheelers " view that suggests that they were the most hardcore purpose built race cars back when rules were being made. I'll also guess that, back then, the subconscious value of seeing a brake light was probably not acknowledged by our simple minded racing grandfathers. (They must have been simple minded; they made no money)
Does anyone here consciously depend on or "use" the brake light on an SR? I may be vaguely aware of a brake light but my depth perception and knowledge of what that driver may do is how my conscious mind decides where I need to be.
there is actually a serious scientific reason as to why a brake light in not necessary.......now if this is why there is no brake light is debatable.....i have no way of knowing if the science concerning chage of retinal image size was known by those that originally said a brake light is not necessary - eye'm staying out of that discussion.......ya'll can offer whatever opinion you care to on the knowledge and intellegence of past officials just so that there is even more comedy and humor in the universe.
bottom line thought is that the human eye is most sensitive to two things . 1 something called vernier acuity... and the other is 2. change of retinal image size. so when the car in front hits its brakes even a little, it becomes a tiny tiny bit larger image on the retina of the following driver. we are mentally numb to associating this fact with driving/braking because we get the ease of brake lights on the street - so we fail to notice it as a very sensitive visual phenomenon.
i would strongly oppose, based on visual science and human physiology, any rule which mandates formula car brake lights.
...on other cars! I studied the braking points of a CSR at Gateway for almost 2 laps, which allowed me to get by him at the end of the straight! I think he was very surprised!
I'm pretty sure I know who Joby is referring to, and the reason for the delayed brake light was, this driver had a lot of miles at that track. When visiting racers came, they'd follow him into the braking area, use brakes lights to judge their own braking, then not be able to make the corner properly because they left their braking too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by formulasuper
That was the theory, anyway, as it was told to me back in the mid 1980's. Probably only worked once, if at all, but you never know.
Its because the orginal ones were made by Lucas...they switched to the same replacements we use now (none) as they are more reliable. :)
I'm with Tim. It's a British electrics/Lucas thing. And that gets us back to the title of this post. Those are break lights or broke lights.
Rob, to get back to your original question...
Formula cars don't have brake lights for the simple reason that they were purpose built race cars right from the outset, with no direct lineage to street cars. In contrast, the CSR and DSR classes were originally called G-Mod and H-Mod, respectively, and were street cars modified beyond what the rules permitted for the production car classes back in the 50's. As former street cars, these cars were required to have functioning brake lights.
By the early 60's, GM and HM were permitted purpose built chassis and bodies, but the lineage to street cars was still fresh in every one's mind, so the lights requirement was retained. The rule still exists, but it is a historical oddity, not because the cars "need" them (after all, one is not going to drive one's CSR home after the race).
Stan
I would be concerned about the guy who is drafting closely down the straight relying on seeing your brake light before he pulls out to attempt a pass under braking.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
I thinks it's because in the early days, these cars were purpose built cars with total loss electrical systems. Everything that didn't run the spark was eliminated in an effort to make sure the battery would last the distance. It wasn't until latter that rain lights were made mandatory and even then it hit the hobby racers long before it it the pros.
I never found it a problem to run with other formula cars without brake lights, but I have run a sedan with a group of Legends cars that didn't have brake lights. It was really freaky to come up behind one of them in the braking areas.
As a side note to Stan's comments about the early Modified classes (the C and DSR of the era), even USRRC (Can-Am) cars had to have a horn, that according to the rule book, was able to be heard outside the car. In the mid-sixties Road & Track tested the Nickey Chevrolet McLaren Mk.1 USRRC/Can-Am car and had a picture of a bicycle squeeze-bulb horn bolted under the dash!
Yep, I'm old.
Joby Graham
A horn is a "good" thing. How many times have you been driving to the grid only to be blocked by a couple of pedestrians walking along shooting the breeze or a street car stopped in the middle of the road with the driver talking out the window to someone? You rev the engine to get their attention, however since they are used to hearing reving engines all day long they pay no attention. One little beep on my lightweight motorcycle horn & they wake up instantly. Besides, it's great for tooting at the corner workers on the cool down lap. Just don't get too carried away with your celebrating!:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Joby Graham
Scott --you are right on. Back in my S2 days in the mid eighties I often wished for a horn for the same reason although my choice would have been a diesel air horn. I even looked at the boat horns but Steve Johnson wouldnt let me put it on my S2. You are right revving the engine only works sometimes because of all the other engine noises going on in the paddock. Let's see brake lights, horns next will be windshield wipers on our helmets and why can't we drive our D/CSRs homw after the races??
How about small front lights and those ever-retro wipersQuote:
Originally Posted by captaineddie1975
http://www.shadesoffun.com/Nov-CP/wiper_sunglasses.html
;)
Mark Defer should jump in here as he had a boat air horn on one of his FFords.
Tuck
Formula Mazdas do have brake lights. Every time they lift a big flame comes out. It is really great as they can't lie about being flat out because this "brake light" gives them away!
I really like the little air horn bit, especially working your way back to your pit. Velcro to a frame tube..hmmm....
Someone before talked about relying too much on other guys' brake lights.
I've driven both formula and Spec Racers and, if my playmates have brake lights, I do depend on them.
In a NASA event at Pocono (South) a three years ago, I was driving a rented Spec Racer Renault and, unbeknownst to me, the SR eight feet in front of me had a busted brake light (this is actually quite common in Spec Racers due to lousy pedal switch mounts). Anyway, entering the left turn off the main chute, he hit the brakes a bit early with no light causing me to slam on my binders and swerve into a spin -- sliding off-track into the dirt and then perpendicular across Turn One and through the conga line of on-coming traffic. Didn't get a scratch.
Yeah...that was a thrill.
I have often wondered if it would be LEGAL (in SCCA) to have an Aircraft Strobe light mounted on a formula car pointing Forward? It could be operated by a push button on the steering wheel. It could help get the attention of some of the wankers you are trying to pass!;) Does anyone know if that would be against anything in the SCCA GCR? One thing I used back in the old days of Formula Ford was to put tape stripes on my drive axles that were wound in a way that made the axles SEEM to be screwing themselves into the diff.:D When people would make comments about how that drove them nuts:mad: all I could think about was "Good for you,just keep staring at the axles and let the distraction mess up YOUR concintration" :kiss: