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I know I could ask this on a sports racer forum, but I am curious if you didn't race a formula car and wanted to go racing in a sports racer what car and class would you choose and why?
Please give three answers:
Low budget $18ish
Medium budget $30ish
High budget $50ish
That is car only of course.
Must be a SCCA class/car
You'll find this hard to grasp but the if you want fenders and want to learn to go fast... SRF.
Lots of competition. A totally momentum car. If you scrub off speed or turn the wheel a bit too much anywhere, you are hosed. If you can win in SRF, you can probably win in any small bore class.
If you don't believe, just talk to someone like Jean Luc (8 Ball).
I personally love the SRF, and think it's one of the most solid classes in SCCA. I do think it's getting kinda old and needs at least an updated sexy body or something. I thought a new one was coming actually, but don't really follow SRF that close.
I have had a DSR (Speads chassis) a year ago. I ran it for two years. All my other cars have been Fords or Continentals. I loved the class and the car, but it just cost too much money. Too really answer you question you need to be more specific about what is low, medium and high as far as dollars.
To somewhat answer your questions. If I had more money (and a job) I would buy another DSR. My car would be a WF-1 Stohr for sure. They seem to be the only factory available car you can buy that will withstand the speed the cars are going. My Speads was fast, but very fragile and I never finished races. There is a ton of them running, good parts supply and a lot of information out there. From what I have seen the new West looks awesome as well so that might be a equal car.
On a lesser budget I would go for a 1st generation Stohr or West. For around the mid 30's you can get a pretty nice car and be pretty competitive.
Lower budget you would have to look at the older chassis.
hope that helps
Darren
One other thing is motors. Some people run stock engines and others will run a fully built race motor. A full race GSXR is not cheap, but damn do they run good. Either way despite what some say, the motorcycle engines are pretty reliable. Granted they seem to be having problems with the 08 GSXR. However I only lost one engine in 2 years and that was my fault.
Darren
Good info guys updated my post.
Good budget starting points. If you shop around and wanted a top shelf DSR you can find some WF-1 Stohrs around the $50k. I have saw some under that.
Here is the skinny on running a DSR. I think I spent somewhere around 25k the last year to run my Speads (do not tell my wife). That was just normal stuff, no crash damage. It was just costing too much money. The money can really add up if you rip off a carbon floor and knock off a carbon nose. You could easily spend $50 k running a DSR for a modest season.
Some folks run there cars for a lot less. They use stock E bay motors, run there tires for several races and might not run a lot of races.
Darren
Yeah I have been looking (don't tell the wife) ;) at Stohrs, one at $50 right now on SR forum. While I can afford to buy it the bigger question is can I afford to race it without ending up in divorce court or in debt. Probably more looking at a medium budget car and really should probably stay low budget. Very good experience info, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Brown
http://216.229.16.90/msr/upload/IMG_0249.jpg
Not sure about the wing, could use a redesign, but the body looks pretty good.
We have a guy that runs in "ASR" with a SRF with a 1.8 motor. Don't really know about his overall experiences, though.
He showed up last weekend at rd atl. I asked him what he did to make his SRF move to "ASR" and he just said he 1.8 motor. So you could start with a SRF and then change the engine to get more speed.
The only thing (again) I don't like is the same as with FE, you are required to buy parts from a single-source vendor. Once you changed the engines, you would be free to manufacture your own bodies that don't have to have the Ent sticker on them, so can save $$ there. Same with suspension pieces.
I agree with Froggy about starting with a used SRF (I have seen several going for 16K plus-or-minus with spares here in SEDIV). From what I hear, you need to be careful about looking for crash-damaged chassis (be sure it is straight), due to the nature of the 'spec wrecker ford' nickname that these cars have earned.
Rent a SRF for a weekend and see what you think. I raced FF for years but needed to go back to driver's school this Spring after a 10 year break. The SRF I rented from John Haggerman was fun to drive, seems very inexpensive to run and they are all equal. Also the parts are available at the track from CSRs so you don't need to carry a lot of spares. If I didn't already own a FF I would consider this class seriously. Personally I will not consider a car with a bike motor, I've seen far too many blow up.
Interesting that so many people threw Formula 2 into a Stohr, Speads or West without knowing what his experience level is AND didn't answer his question directly.
No question D/SR is the premier sports racer class in SCCA at the moment in terms of speed and performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Formula2
$18K ish range:
Are older designs many on home built 1-off frames. Typically HIGH level of mechanical maintenance required and real hands-on cars. Good regional event cars and mid pack racing in Nationals.
$30K ish range:
Good price range for people new to sports racers that want to 'aim' for the pointy end of the pack. BEST buy here is a used Radical. Radicals are built for reliability and endurance racing. Hold up well under race conditions and give you a lot of experience with resonable costs to operate.
$50K ish range:
Yes, the front runners. But also capable of turning the inside of your drivers suit various shades of brown faster then you can reach for the toilet paper! These are full blown mini-ALMS cars that require a LOT of setup work and maintenance to get the full potential from the car. If you are not capable of a lot of restraint during the learning process, not a good starting point for stepping into a sports racer.
C/SR is another option. These are often converted formula cars with full fender bodies on them. Again, a unique mix of chassis and designs plus, quite a number of home builts along the lines of D/SR but with higher engine outputs. Certainly in theory quicker then D/SR but with the cornering development of the front running D/SR's they generally set faster lap times then C/SR's. You can find good C/SR's in your mid to upper price range.
Unless you're absolutely deep in to the term 'sports racer' I'd also look at GT-2 and GT-3 cars. Tube framed with plenty of speed and automotive based engines that are generally available in a variety of states of tune. Not any harder on the budget then D/SR.
Awesome info guys, I really appreciate the great replies. I am definitely staying in the low to medium price range. I haven't raced for a good 4 years but kinda thinking about getting back into an open wheeler. The FFit is really peaking my interest, but a 30ish used radical would be badass. :D I think SRF is the smartest choice for my wallet if I want to go sports racer. Always the tin tops too like rickb99 said. Going to be a good long while before I am ready to buy, so plenty of time to sit back see what happens, and keep doing my research.
For $30,000. You can buy a sports 2000 and run it for a few years!! Great cars, fun to drive and pretty cheap to maintain!! Like ANY class if you want to run top level stuff it cost money period.
If you want budget then the old purple sage is right ,you want SRF.
Lee
http://mcscc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=724
A Lola 87/90 for $23,000.
You only mentioned the initial outlay, i.e., car cost. Have you figured out what your operating budget per weekend will be? That is probably more important than the capital outlay. You need to ask yourself:
1) Do you have the mechanical skills necessary to prep and run the car yourself, or do you need a prep shop?
2) Is this a car that you can run by yourself or with "amateur" crew, or is it at a level that will require some experienced track-side assistance?
3) Do you have a tool budget? A lot of the tools necessary for a mid- or top-level formula car or sports racer are not obvious to newcomers - and not inexpensive. Think about scales, setup platform, lifts, alignment tools, gauges, data acquisition and software, etc. The more advanced the car, the more advanced and capable the tools will have to be to get you to the front.
4) Engine rebuilds, transmission work, tires, and crash damage.
You might find that driving something like a SRF for a year to get your license, learn the basics, and figure out what you really want might be the ticket. Assuming you don't wad it up completely, you could sell it at the end of the year without losing a lot, then move up to something faster.
yeah I have my license at least I did when I was racing 4 years ago. :(
Sold off the camber, string setup, and pads when I sold the car. I can't do engine rebuilds, but have installed engines in many a formula car, built a FSCCA from scratch, done gear changes, suspension setup, blah blah. I love how easy a formula car is to work on. I do hate fiberglass and body work (ahhhhh why am I looking into a sports racer again?). :confused:
I have done close to 10 sr20det swaps in 240sx's. I am pretty mechanically inclined, not a Ferrari mechanic by any means but do ok.
I would definitely need to buy setup equipment again. I never did have data, but now a days an incar and data system are stupid cheap, compared to what it use to be.
I do have to look at tire budget and how often the engine will have to be refreshed for each car/class I am looking at.
Will add a Lola 87/90 to the growing list of cars to look at. :thumbsup:
Big thanks guys love the info!
SRF - if you want to learn how to race.
Look at: http://www.scca.com/documents/Club_E...ASTER_JUNE.pdf
#1 in participation for a good reason.
While I agree that DSR would be a great choice, no one has asked the OP whether he wants to engineer and tinker, which is one of the greatest aspects of DSR, IMO. I can build my own engine and modify it however I want (unlike SRF). I can build aero bits, change suspension geometry, whatever I want. S2 is more open, but still has parts that can't be swapped, and engines that can only run certain regulated parts.
Rickb above said"
$18K ish range:
Are older designs many on home built 1-off frames. Typically HIGH level of mechanical maintenance required and real hands-on cars.......
"
I gotta call BS on that. Older designs typically require less maintenace because they are generally less sophisticated, and easier to work on. I have a chassis that falls into this category, and I gotta say that the ease of maintenance is much less than any stohr out there. Even the maintenance between races is minimal. Getting a good solid chassisis key.
Besides the engineering aspect, what caliber driver are you, and do you expect to be at the front at all times, or at least to have a shot at the front. Are you going to the runoffs, and expecting to win it?
Formula 2,
Feel free to pm or email me if you want more detailed information about the DSR stuff. Might be easier to just talk about it so I can answer some questions directly for you. I can email my number to you.
Darren
darrenbrown97@tx.rr.com
I was a midpack safe driver with some top three races here and there. No plans for runoffs the first year back.
Lot of options.
Darren, I tried PMing you but it wouldn't let me.
If you want competition and are interested in measuring driver skill over money definitely go SRF. If you want to go faster or like to engineer then there are other better options. Although if you want to go faster you could consider FE unless you are set on closed wheel for looks/safety reasons.
Formula2,
By saying "race," I assume you care about the actual competition / being competitive. If you're content to be a cheerleader / field-filler type guy, then the answer would be "race whatever appeals to you." Nothing wrong with that, either. From a competitive standpoint and with the budget limits you outlined:
1) $18k - SRF. Pros: best racing, most cars, least cost. Cons: cars are slow.
2) $30k - S2. Pros: reliable cars, fast & liberal enough, mostly good drivers, rules modernization under way, moderate cost. Cons: poor participation that may or may not improve, decent fields limited to certain geographical areas, no cars at regional races at all.
3) $50k+ - DSR/CSR. Pros: fast cars, no rules if you want to engineer, decent participation in DSR. Cons: no rules = massive cost, dubious reliability when pushing the limits, major obsolescence issues, quality of fields varies wildly.
I raced DSR for three years, finishing 2nd, 4th, and 3rd at the Runoffs. Darren has correctly outlined the costs involved. CSR costs more. I switched to S2 and now spend half as much on a top shelf effort while running what amounts to double the miles on track. SRF is too limited for me, but it's obviously a great class for all the reasons people have mentioned. Take your pick & have fun.
Formula 2
Just send me a email at darrenbrown97@tx.rr.com I will send you my phone number.
Darren
Running costs should definitely be a consideration, as Marshall touched on.
Tires and engine costs can vary pretty wiildly between classes.
So other questions you have to ask yourself are:
How often do I want to race?
How competitive do I want to be?
The second question is probably the toughest to answer, but the most critical. Clearly, there are a bunch of folks that enjoy working on cars, getting the most out of what they have, even if that's not truly "competitive" car. Other want to get out there and know that the only thing keeping them from the front is their own driving skills.
Wanting to run a lot AND have a competitive car put me in SRF. I had given thought to FV but decided to stick with a sports racer.
Steve
More great info guys!!! :thumbsup:
I think for just getting back into racing and cost containment, I need to stay away from DSR, as much as I would love to race as DSR. :( I will have to keep an eye on the rules modernization in S2. Seems like a lot of changes in different classes this year. Going to be watching FF with the new fit engine also.
Thanks!
My region is a large one, yet SRs aren't popular here. If you want to race (with someone) you need to visit your local tracks and see what kind of turnout they have. If we get 3 SRs (other than SRFs), it's a good turnout...and this is on a weekend with 250+ entries. The SRs we get seldom run close to each other, so it's more high-speed driving than wheel-to-wheel racing with passing.
Assuming what you want to do is race, I'd definitely go SRF. Spare parts are available at a reasonable price and you'll have someone to race with. CSR is almost dead, and DSR is getting very expensive.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
I chose DSR.
As others have said in the thread, the key question is how important being competitive at a national level is to you.
I started out with a Radical, which I bought for $25K. You can get them these days for about $20K. I raced the car for four years - autocross, time trials, and then two years of club racing, and never had a DNF, engine failure. The worst was a fuel cell I had to replace, which was my own fault. Very very low running costs, the thing was a tractor. Won a lot of races on a regional level, where I've found driver matters way more than car.
Bought a Stohr last winter and have tried to race it this year. Two engine failures thus far, unfortunately, but if I can get that figured out, the rest of the car seems solid, and competitive enough for top 10 Runoffs finishes. Runoffs win, no way.
But man alive is it awesome to drive.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the SCCA sports racer, the ESR? Way faster/more fun/better looking than an SRF, but spec for those that want an even playing field. I'd hop into one of those way before an SRF. My personal feeling - and I know everybody is different - is that I have a hard time racing something that's slower than my daily driver...
-Jake
I would definatly go with SRF.
if money wasnt a factor id still go with SRF, the cheap cost is just an added bonus.
i definatly see the appeal in something like DSR. but i really dont think its the way to go if you want alot of competition. ive watched many DSR races and its almost always a parade. but they do look like one of the most exciting cars out there to drive.
dont let them being slower scare you, they are still plenty fast, its pretty crazy how fast some of the top SRF guys can be, they push the crap out of those cars.
its harder to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car fast. you dont have tons of power to hide and fix your mistakes.
the only thing i could see that might turn people away is that there is so little that you can do to the car, so for people that enjoy being able to mess around with different motors and parts, SRF might not be the best choice.
if you want the best competition out there, and a real test of driver skill rather than money, go with SRF, and you will have more fun than anyone.
if you want something very fast, dont want as many restrictions for your car setup, and dont mind the small amount of competition, go with something like DSR.
There are only half a dozen or so SCCA Sports Racers, and they are classified in CSR. StanQuote:
Originally Posted by JakeL
Sports 2000 (S2) has a growing following in the vintage racing community. Don't laugh. The racing is real and lots of it to boot. Good fields, top notch drivers at the front, all the other benefits of a rules-stable class. Run groups are better (IMHO) than what you encounter within SCCA.
And - the drivers pretty much police themselves. You hit somebody, make a bad passing decision with contact - and you are back on the trailer. You can race hard or race for fun - you will find someone to race with. At some of these events, the size of the S2 fields will rival that of the Runoffs. They also get their own special S2 only groups at some events.
When the track time over 3 days is compared to an SCCA 2-day event plus a test day, the entry fees are very comparable. And - you can run for a championship if you want.
jg
Obviously you know how much cash you have in the bank to buy a race car today. So that answers wheather it is a $ 50 K car, a $ 30 K car or an $ 18 k car that will be in your garage.
However, It is not just buying the car, but operating expenses per race that eat you up.
For example, can you do all the work on the car your self ? Speciality shop labor is very expensive.
Here is a tiny portion of what you also must keep in mind operating cost wise.
gas for tow vehicle to get to races, cost for trailer, parking & storage for tow vehivle & trailer, tires & tow vehicle maintenance & insurance if it is an extra vehicle for towing added to the stable
gas for race car - avgas or racing gas for whole weekend ?
hotel for over night at track or RV costs if you have one.
parts cost & availability if you tear a corner off the car, wear out a CV joint, bend an upright, damage a wheel bearings, clutch, brake pads, rotors, etc..
maintenance items like brake pads, brake fluid, engine oil, trans oil & replacement gears, etc..
entry fees, club dues, eating out at the track, feeding crew, etc..
engine replacement costs in case of it letting go as they sometimes do.
engine life expentancy hours based on truth not conjecture for cost per Hour
trans cost, including replacement or over haul cost, changing gears selection, Special oils, etc.
used tire cost & traction treatment if you go that route - or new tires cost - calculate per race tire cost.
Plus the dozens of other stuff that adds up & other costs that come up.
How much do you feel is your per weekend opetrating average cost including all of the above that would be acceptable to you ?
Then once you know that you can do a better job to pick a car.
Good luck.
mike
For the record...is that proposed re-alignment of the SR classes still going to happen, or has it been shelved? If it does it could open a lot of interesting ideas for several classes of OW cars in the S2 category.
On my budget... SRF. On an unlimited budget, CSR.
DSR and CSR are to be combined, per order of the BOD, details are still TBD. There is still an option open for creation of an SR2 class, but those rules won't begin to be hashed out until the CSR/DSR merge into SR1 has been dealt with:Quote:
Originally Posted by dalz
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52721
Interesting debate. I have only experience at the Regional level.
Drove a friend's SRF for Driver's School. Loved the car. Handled well but I have the most fun in the corners rather than the straights. Good racing group as well even if they tend to rub fenders a bit. Would definitely consider one for racing.
Years ago, went to a Solo I and saw a couple Legrands. Being a dumb Mech Engineer, I fell in love with the cars. Bought a Legrand and raced it in DSR for a few years. Got about as fast in it as I thought I could get and bought an AMAC. AMAC handles well despite not having the downforce of the newer design DSRs.
The new rule changes to CSR/DSR and SR2 are a big unknown and can influence where you want to go. The AMAC will probably be a SR2 car.
If I had the money, I would have a WF1. Having retired I run less races now but would love to have a go in a Stohr.
Critical to racing is being able to maintain the car yourself. It is also part of the challenge.
The two seater CN cars can start around $50,000, are highly relaible, don't require a lot of continuous set-up and are low cost of of ownership, unless you hit something.
Here is an example from a friend's website: www.notaradical.com