Printable View
As I am sorting through all the ssystems for the March 86A project car I have discovered it has an air starter. Do all indycar and indylites use these things? Are they much of a fuss to live with? And finally...any thoughts on conversion to an electric starter.
Any experience or suggestions would be greatly appreciated..
Scott B
The starter motors were from Desouter, if I remember correctly. They were fairly reliable, eben though you were pumping something like 1500 psi through them. Expensive motor if you ever need to replace one. They were used on the March Indy Lights cars, but not the Champ cars.
The more fragile part of the system was the shaft that it engaged. Again, my memory could be off - it's been 20 years since I last saw one!
Desouter were most common. However, I had an Ingersall-Rand that had been modified for the Marches. It's drive was through the rear case directly to the shaft and the weak link was the sprague clutch.
Thank you for the information. Between these replies and a PM have what I need.
Thank you apexspeed...
Scott B
Yep - you are right. The Lights was direct drive, and the Champ car had the intermediary shaft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Warner
The Desouter motor was the standard setup from March, though there is no reason that another brand, such as the IR, couldn't work as well. No clue as to whether or not the same motor is still available.
When I got the March F1s there was one Desouter and one modified IR. Both worked equally well. The critical issue, as Richard points out, is the amount of punch needed. I had to use a minimum .750" line and it worked a lot better with a 1 inch line. And a large bottle was pretty much required. Interestingly, the Ralt & reynard F3000s had an air starter that was mounted to the gearbox with a male quick disconnect for the hookup. Tied into that line was the emergency start bottle that would (hopefully) allow a start on the circuit, with an electric valve similar to a fire system. All you did was hook the line to the male quick disconnect and open the in-line valve on the female part. Much nicer than the Desouter/IR system.
The March Lights had that same option for mounting in the LH sidepod, but no one that I remember actually used it - too much dead weight. We had probably 4 of those bottles in stock for 5 years, and never sold any!
Besides - who in their right mind would want a high-pressure bottle taking a hit in an accident? :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
The more interesting bottle was the diver oxygen supply bottle - about 2 inches in diameter, and maybe 8 inches long, pressurized to 10,000 psi ! I think that I still have one upstairs somewhere if anyone wants it.
That's the one the F3000s used. If you don't want the one you have I'll take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Pare
Charles,
I have two of the lifeline air bottles. About 3 inches in diameter and 12 inches long. The guage shows they will go to 3000 psi. Any interest in trading one of those for your nitrogen bottle mounts?
Scott B
Scott,
I'm not sure if they are what I am looking for. They may be too big. I'll have to check.
Thanks,
Hi Scott,
I paid alot of money to have that air starter rebuilt ! It's fresh.
Gregg
Gregg,
Good to hear about the air starter. Hopefully you did not pay much for the engine work since the block was badly cracked, and the internal parts were for a drag engine and how about that ring gap of 075.....
Then there is the gearbox, the non brakes and....
But as always, buying a race car, even under the best of circumstances is a crap shoot, no hard feelings... I always expect things to be that way...
Regardless, I have a Homolgation certificate for the car, so it will eventually be on the track with SCCA.
Scott B
A very interesting thread
I recently purchased a Ralt F3000 car wtih an air starter that mounts on the side of the gearbox case. My goal is to convert over to a common battery / standard starter. I know Derek Harling has done this on a V6 F3000 but has anyone done it on a V8?
Tim
quote=Scott B;236704]Gregg,
Good to hear about the air starter. Hopefully you did not pay much for the engine work since the block was badly cracked, and the internal parts were for a drag engine and how about that ring gap of 075.....
Then there is the gearbox, the non brakes and....
But as always, buying a race car, even under the best of circumstances is a crap shoot, no hard feelings... I always expect things to be that way...
Regardless, I have a Homolgation certificate for the car, so it will eventually be on the track with SCCA.
Scott B[/quote]
I was told the engine was running when it was pulled. I knew it was welded up, but didn't know it was cracked. I planned to freshen it and use it. Reverse gear in the trans should be an easy fix, bore it and sleeve it. A lot of guys don't even bother with reverse. Non Brakes ? I told you I set it up for Wilwoods and got rid of the crappy Alcons. People that drove these car told me the brakes were weak, so I put larger rotors and calipers on. How can I help ? I have a line on engine parts.
Actually what I did would work with 'any' engine since the starter motor is behind the flywheel. There was a small recess in the left front side of the gearbox case fore the air starter and I positioned a reverse direction (counterclockwise) Nippon Denso starter motor (from a front wheel drive Toyota/Lexus I think) partially in this small recess. This then drives forwards to the flywheel and starter motor (hence the need for the reverse rotation). It was necessary to get the starter as far into the recess as possible so that the pinion centerline was as near to the crank centerline as possible. Several wood mockups were made before milling the final aluminum mounting block. All this required a slightly larger ring gear which ARK Starters (UK) made for me and I bolted to the standard flywheel. Fortunately the crank centerline height was sufficient that the new ring gear doesn't machine the track surface!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tim gaffney
If this had been a problem I would have had to angle the start motor 'in' towards a smaller diameter ring gear. This is what Australian Formula Holdens did (for a different reason) and apparently it works fine even without angled ring gear teeth.
Pics available if required. Derek
Tim,Quote:
Originally Posted by tim gaffney
I never had a lick of trouble with that starter. Unless you absolutely have to have an electric starter it might be more headache than it's worth. ARK (as mentioned by Derek) are the guys to talk to. They might have something off the shelf.
Since the engine in the March is a Stage II Buick V6 the conversion over to the electric starter was very easy. The Tilton starter on the NASCAR COTF has an offset drive with two different drive gears which allow it to be tucked up against the engine block and still mesh nicely with the 9 1/2" road racing flywheel. Only had to fabricate a bracket to bolt the starter to the standard GM mounting points on the block. Also fabricated an additional bracket at the non drive end of the starter. The reason for the change over is twofold. I usually go to the track by myself, so no one to unplug the air starter line, and since SCCA FS rules require an onboard self starter the electric was easier since the car already has a battery and an alternator. Additionally, there is the safety issue of not carrying around a highly pressurized air tank somewhere outside the tub (have enough experience with shrapnel through my body parts).
Gregg, not to worry, I found a guy in Michigan who has raced the Buick V6 for 20 years. Bought a very nice block, heads that are not cracked, and a very nice roller valve train set. Have worked out all the ancillary stuff with parts that can easily be replaced. The radiators you sent with the car are very nice. The suspension pieces are all excellent. Before I put them on the car, I will build jigs so I can make spares. When I go to Fontana in Jan will take the gearbox case along and give it to Lee so he can machine the reverse back into the case and set the backlash. I will also have him check the R&P backlash. The gears you sent as spares are very nice. I am going to go a little taller in the top two gears rather than rev the engine too high. With the titanium valves and roller valvetrain it will be good to 8500, but figure on 7000 rpm for longevity. With the reasonable compression ratio, and about 015 more space between the piston tops and valves should have around 350 hp and similar torque, and still be reliable. My goal with this car is to fairly quick, with low maintenance and fussing at the the track=have fun with more seat time. Gregg, also the fuel injection intakes were supposed to come with the car. Why did you keep them?
Scott B
March 86A
Ralt RT5
Heads that were not cracked ? Those heads were pressure checked when I bought them.
Intakes- You told me you wanted the 4 barrel setup for simplicity also the FI manifolds were not drilled for throttle plates. You want em you can have em ! They are still here. You should have e-mailed me with your issues. Sorry you weren't happy. The sus was crack checked and new brgs in the uprights.
That was good thinking with the starter !
Gregg
Greg,
As I wrote earlier, all the issues with the car, to me, are not significant problems. I have been racing for 40 years. I have found that nothing is more used, or abused, than a used race car. Regardless of stated condition, I always tear a car, that is new to me, completely apart. All pieces are crack checked, rebuilt and/or replaced. When I sell stuff I always try to be honest to the buyer and let them know of all possible faults. Over the years, I have made mistakes, something I thought was correct was found not so, and the reverse sometimes also happens. If it is my fault I do what I can to make it right. I always to try to give a buyer a reasonable deal, even it means I give them their money back. As for me, I do not care about the money, I work on and race cars because, in life it has always been my passion. Keep the parts, I will find something else...and at least from my end, once again, no hard feelings.
Scott B
Maybe some of you guys could use this...Ebay #370307403871. or some of his "Other Items"
NOT my auctions but I have bought from him in the past.
I have also bought many items from this seller and have had good luck.